Is there such thing as a "STYLE"?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

With recent threads talking about how style is not needed and unimportant. It made me rethink what we consider a “Style”.

  1. What is a Style? What are the components that up a make a Style? Is a style different from a technique? Is “Style” just personal flavor? Is "Style’ theory or principle?

  2. Do we need a “Style”? Is a round kick a round kick no matter what “style”? If what I do wins every time (in the ring or street) is my style the best? What if I have no style? Is there a need for different “Styles” to martial art situations?

Your comments?

ginosifu

2

Quite oftern that we have heard people said:

  • Totally different philosophy of fighting with my style …
  • The way my style Kicks are not like karate kicks …
  • My style has “no grab” concept …
  • In my style, we just don’t do thing like that …
  • …

The longfist side kick is done differently from the TDK side kick. The longfist roundhouse kick is also done different from the MT roundhouse kick. After you give a fair comparsion, you may find out one method is better than the other, or you may find out that both methods are good in different ways and it’s just a trade off. After that comparsion, you should be able to do your kicks in both ways.

If you develop your side kick, roundhouse kick, front kick, … jab, cross, hook, … finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, …, hip throw, single leg, double legs, … this way (by compare style from style), you will have a toolbox that comtain the best tools.

Now you may want to learn how to use one tool to set up another tool. You then find out that long fist has roundhouse kick, side kick combo, mantis has back fist, hook punch combo, eagle claw has elbow lock, shoulder lock combo. SC has hip throw, inner hook combo. After you have pick up all the combos that’s available in all TCMA systems, you then construct those combos yourself that you just can’t find in any system, now you will have a system that’s more “complete” than any system that exsit on tis planet.

After you have gone through this process, you will never say, “My style kick this way.” Instead you will say, “You can kick this way or that way.” You train all styles but you are not restricted by any style.

3

Style is just a word. System says more. A system is governed by principals and concepts. Some people can develop their own Style of applying such principals and concepts. I think if you were familiar with it, you could easily know what system I was using, but from the style in which I apply it you would not be able to tell what it was.
When much younger I hired out my fighting skills. I worked for questionable individuals because I could protect their interests. It was said that I did not mess around and that I could really fight. No one ever mentioned that I was a martial artist or some such. Nothing about gung fu or whatever. It must not have seemed aparent to them. Just that I was able to fight well. Nothing like you would see in a movie at all. How it looks is not important unless you are competing in form. How well it works is all important. Your own style is just how you go about your system of martial art.

4

I have been reflecting on this somewhat myself lately, and am coming to the conclusion that is style is a very personal way of expressing oneself in combat.

5

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1136820]Quite oftern that we have heard people said:

  • Totally different philosophy of fighting with my style …
  • The way my style Kicks are not like karate kicks …
  • My style has “no grab” concept …
  • In my style, we just don’t do thing like that …
  • …

The longfist side kick is done differently from the TDK side kick. The longfist roundhouse kick is also done different from the MT roundhouse kick. After you give a fair comparsion, you may find out one method is better than the other, or you may find out that both methods are good in different ways and it’s just a trade off. After that comparsion, you should be able to do your kicks in both ways.

If you develop your side kick, roundhouse kick, front kick, … jab, cross, hook, … finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, …, hip throw, single leg, double legs, … this way (by compare style from style), you will have a toolbox that comtain the best tools.

Now you may want to learn how to use one tool to set up another tool. You then find out that long fist has roundhouse kick, side kick combo, mantis has back fist, hook punch combo, eagle claw has elbow lock, shoulder lock combo. SC has hip throw, inner hook combo. After you have pick up all the combos that’s available in all TCMA systems, you then construct those combos yourself that you just can’t find in any system, now you will have a system that’s more “complete” than any system that exsit on tis planet.

After you have gone through this process, you will never say, “My style kick this way.” Instead you will say, “You can kick this way or that way.” You train all styles but you are not restricted by any style.[/QUOTE]

YouKnowWho: you just summed up Jeet Kune Do sorta kinda. To take from what stuff you have learned and make it your own is JKD.

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1136830]Style is just a word. System says more. A system is governed by principals and concepts. Some people can develop their own Style of applying such principals and concepts. I think if you were familiar with it, you could easily know what system I was using, but from the style in which I apply it you would not be able to tell what it was.[/QUOTE]

Yes, system or style…same difference. Maybe I should have used a title like: “Is there such a thing as a System”

A system or style refers to principles, theories or techniques that are used in conjunction for an overall “theme” while fighting. This theme is controls how every technique is applied.

Some Example of theme based fighting techniques:

Some systems use straight lined movements. Linear style goes forward without any angular or circular stepping.

Some systems pivot on the balls of their feet VS those who pivot on their heels.

Some systems may favor grabbing and throwing VS systems that favor stand up or long range fighting.

My Monkey style focuses on eye scratching, groin strikes, pinching and poking. Take away this and all you have is a Northern Shaolin looking style. Systems or styles were created on purpose, to give different approaches to fighting. Otherwise we all look like robotic zombies doing the same moves on each other.

This is not a bash on MMA, just observances from people that I know: People that are not in any Martial Arts that I speak with say they have watched some spike channel UFC fighting stuff. Everyone is exactly the same in explaining what they saw, male or female, young or old.

“It looked there was no Style at all, it looked like just brawling”. This comes from every non MA person that has told me they watched MMA. Not that MMA has no style but mainly the rules take away freedom of expression of style and everyone just reverts back to a very basic kick, punch, grapple.

Now I might like scratching eyes and kicking to the groin, but you may not. Style gives us an option to learn theory / system that are right for you.

ginosifu

6

Greetings,

The word “style” does not say much except for, maybe, outer characteristics.

The words “gate” or “school” says more.

And the word “catalog” hits it on the head.

mickey

7

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1136816]With recent threads talking about how style is not needed and unimportant. It made me rethink what we consider a “Style”.

  1. What is a Style? What are the components that up a make a Style? Is a style different from a technique? Is “Style” just personal flavor? Is "Style’ theory or principle?

  2. Do we need a “Style”? Is a round kick a round kick no matter what “style”? If what I do wins every time (in the ring or street) is my style the best? What if I have no style? Is there a need for different “Styles” to martial art situations?

Your comments?

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Are you talking what happened in the 60’s or 70’s about the full introduction of martial in USA regarding styles who became predominant in the martial arts?. Or are you also considering what many systems or styles were common in Southern China and other parts of China, Korea, Japan and Southeast Asia? There is the tradition with some philosophical flavors that doesn’t apply in today’s world. I think today is a different story and styles or even systems are just relics as today we have more to compare, more information to learn and even videos to see what’s what. Not always the best but at least we get the gist of whoever is pretending to show off their style. Just wondering…

8

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1136843]
Some Example of theme based fighting techniques:

Some systems use straight lined movements. Linear style goes forward without any angular or circular stepping.

Some systems pivot on the balls of their feet VS those who pivot on their heels.

Some systems may favor grabbing and throwing VS systems that favor stand up or long range fighting.[/QUOTE]

We can also call those “common sense” instead of style or system difference.

If your opponent is

  • stronger than you, you attack his side door, otherwise you attack his front door.
  • taller than you, you attack his lower body, otherwise you attack his upper body.
  • a striker, you force him to play the grappling game, otherwise you force him to play the striking game.
  • weaker than you, you use your own force and run him down.
  • stronger than you, you borrow his force and still run him down.
  • moving toward you, you let him in and give him a “head on collusion”.
  • moving away from you, you follow him and give him a “rear end collusion”.
  • …

IMO, whether you pivot on the balls or pivot on the heels is not important. It’s the end result that should be judged. If your style only teaches you how to do jab and cross but not hook punch, your style has serious problem.

9

Chaung Tzu:
[INDENT]‘Heaven and Earth are the same as a finger; the myriad things are the same as a horse. Affirmation lies in affirming; denial lies in our denying. A way comes into being through our walking upon it; a thing is so because people say it is so. Why are things so? They are so because we declare them to be so. Why are things not so? They are not so because we declare them to be not so’.[/INDENT]

'nuff said…

10

You are a chicken nugget. Dipping sauce is a lesson. One day that lesson maybe bbq the next honey mustard and so on. Once you have completed a six to twelve month of lessons you have developed a style. Now you continue to learn and experiment with more and more lessons adding the flavor and taking away but your style has been built on the foundation.:wink:

11

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1136816]With recent threads talking about how style is not needed and unimportant. It made me rethink what we consider a “Style”.

  1. What is a Style? What are the components that up a make a Style? Is a style different from a technique? Is “Style” just personal flavor? Is "Style’ theory or principle?

  2. Do we need a “Style”? Is a round kick a round kick no matter what “style”? If what I do wins every time (in the ring or street) is my style the best? What if I have no style? Is there a need for different “Styles” to martial art situations?

Your comments?

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

There are styles and systems. To say anything less is to disrespect those who’ve devoted their lives to those systems.

There are also people. People do crazy arse things. In the end - you are who you are, but without the people who’ve devoted their time to perfect the different styles - you end up not having anything to “borrow”.

When he died, BL was just starting to figure out Wing Chun.

It’s all Kung Fu. :slight_smile:

12

If you only have

  • 1 girlfriend, you will always talk about, “my girl like this and my girl that”.
  • 2 girlfriends, you start not to talk much about any of your girls.
  • 10 girlfriends, you will say that all girls are the same. They are just a …

If you are a computer science major, you have to learn:

  • Fortran
  • Basic
  • Algol
  • Pascal
  • Cobal
  • PL1
  • Lisp
  • Assemble language
  • C
  • C++
  • SOM
  • Java
  • …

No matter which language that you use for your software design, you still use logic such as:

  • If … Then … Else ..
  • While … Do …
  • Repeat … Until …
13

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1136859]If you only have

  • 1 girlfriend, you will always talk about, “my girl like this and my girl that”.
  • 2 girlfriends, you start not to talk much about any of your girls.
  • 10 girlfriends, you will say that all girls are the same. They are just a …[/QUOTE]

1 girlfriend will make you crazy.
10 will drive you insane.

14

WHAT we do is a system, HOW we do it is our STYLE.
You can have multiple styles within a system.
A system is a systematic pattern of things, in the case of MA it comprises of techniues and principles, HOW those principles and technqiues are applied by the INDIVIDUAL is what equals “style”.

15

[QUOTE=MightyB;1136858]There are styles and systems. To say anything less is to disrespect those who’ve devoted their lives to those systems.[/QUOTE]

MightyB: I should have been a bit more specific. I was mainly interested in SYSTEM. Do we need Praying Mantis system or Shoryn Ryu Karate or Tang Soo Do? Systems or styles separate everyone into differently themed MA.

Some here say that there is no need for separate systems, more of just generalized MA where everyone can pick and chose what techniques are best for themselves.

So now why did people of the past (all ethnic groups and countries) create systems that are very differrent from each other?

I see YouKnowWho’s point but still disagree. If you study Shaolin or Wing Chun or Shuai Chiao and you don’t like how they kick… then don’t train in their system anymore! Most all CMA systems are COMPLETE with every situation covered with techniques to fill every need. However, not every CMA teacher has all the info in the system. Some people have gone off and not learned everything from their Sifu and Sigung.

CMA is very vast and made to teach the masses. If we were at a temple or military post, they would teach a plethera of techniques to all. Not all techniques are right for each individual, so kick A a is good for you but kick B is good for me. That is why there are so many different styles and systems.

There is really no need to *******ize all CMA just for the sake of extrapolating stuff what you like.

ginosifu

16

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1136883]WHAT we do is a system, HOW we do it is our STYLE.
You can have multiple styles within a system.
A system is a systematic pattern of things, in the case of MA it comprises of techniues and principles, HOW those principles and technqiues are applied by the INDIVIDUAL is what equals “style”.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifing that for me.

ginosifu

17

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1136830]Style is just a word. System says more. A system is governed by principals and concepts. Some people can develop their own Style of applying such principals and concepts. I think if you were familiar with it, you could easily know what system I was using, but from the style in which I apply it you would not be able to tell what it was.
When much younger I hired out my fighting skills. I worked for questionable individuals because I could protect their interests. It was said that I did not mess around and that I could really fight. No one ever mentioned that I was a martial artist or some such. Nothing about gung fu or whatever. It must not have seemed aparent to them. Just that I was able to fight well. Nothing like you would see in a movie at all. How it looks is not important unless you are competing in form. How well it works is all important. Your own style is just how you go about your system of martial art.[/QUOTE]

You sound like a character from one of the Final Fantasy games. Were you a member of Soldier like Sephiroth and Cloud?

18

often , I find dictionaries to be handy. :stuck_out_tongue:

Style = expression
System = series of methods that produce expected results.

19

Good question

There are two styles

Each system wil have it’s own style based on its preference for problem solving (kicks vs punches. Grappling/control vs striking). A man looking for a single leg opportunity will have different posture, even cadence than a man looking to score a crushing leg kick.

Within a system, an individual will develop his own style, techniques and set ups that they prefer. Movements that favor their body types.

A great experience is learning different systems and incorporating their style into your style.

20

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1136895]often , I find dictionaries to be handy. :stuck_out_tongue:

Style = expression
System = series of methods that produce expected results.[/QUOTE]

Self expression is not what I was looking for. I guess I just should have stated System.

I have studied several styles. Although I may be using only Monkey System / Theory, I express my fighting with my own “Style” because of my experiences.

The thread was supposed to about SYSTEMS. Should there be a universal system? Like a World Martial Art, where everyone one punches the same and kicks the same? Should we Jeet Kune Do all CMA? Or should we keep Shaolin as Shaolin and Wing Chun as Wing Chun etc.

ginosifu