This is a bit of thread Necro… but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing? Yes, there are nuances to every “style” but that’s really all they are… “nuances”- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.
So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can’t we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because… ?
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076774]is there something fundamentally different between styles …[/QUOTE]
A mantis “hook punch” is to use your fist to hit on the “side” of your opponent’s head. A SC “hook punch” is to use your fore-arm to hit the “back” of your opponent’s head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.
i do believe that some styles have more potential than others…
i also believe that how you train is more important than what you train…
and hey, some styles mix well, others dont mix so well… but with a decent brain you should always be able to find a bridge between the two…
that being said, taking body size, personality etc etc into consideration, you choose what combo(how vs what) is best for you… ofcourse unless you have some great advice(and you have no way of knowing how good it is till later) you’ll have to just wade in, experience some stuff and move on from there… whatevers best for you… but how is so important… you MUST train against resisting opponents and you MUST spar atleast somewhat full contact against many people from many diff styles from all around… what i mean is you cant just spar with kung fu bros. cousins and guys from the school down the road… thats all good, but you need more veriety and it benefits everyone involved…
I’m just thinking about how in most traditional martial arts creation mythology - the stories usually detail how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy’s sacred fist set, then he travels to another province to learn billy-jack’s kicking set, then to another city where there’s a famous long stick master. But nowadays- that’s seen as taboo…
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076784]how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy’s sacred fist set,[/QUOTE]
It did happened. My teacher spent a year and half just tried to learn a “double leg hooking” from a tea shop owner. It’s not that easy to learn someone’s best move if you are not his student. IMO, you travel to learn a single technique and not any form.
i dont know what ur talking about its still like that in china.
some people feel empty in life and they hold on to something really tight and dont let go.
a good example ist star trek conventions arguments there can get really heated and the kind people is very similar to those that do kung fu
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076777]A mantis “hook punch” is to use your fist to hit on the “side” of your opponent’s head. A SC “hook punch” is to use your fore-arm to hit the “back” of your opponent’s head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.[/QUOTE]
It might depend on which branch of Mantis.
For us, we have the entire range from fist to temple through forearm to back of head.
Superficially, it may be considered fist. But in application, forearm is preferred. When attacking, we want to close in enough that the forearm can contact and body and leg can strike as well.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076784]I’m just thinking about how in most traditional martial arts creation mythology - the stories usually detail how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy’s sacred fist set, then he travels to another province to learn billy-jack’s kicking set, then to another city where there’s a famous long stick master. But nowadays- that’s seen as taboo…[/QUOTE]
That still does happen, and is even encouraged. But for a lot of students, they are not at a level of skill and understanding where it useful to do so.
In those old stories, those people were already masters or champions.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076774]This is a bit of thread Necro… but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing? Yes, there are nuances to every “style” but that’s really all they are… “nuances”- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.
So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can’t we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because… ?[/QUOTE]
This is one of those Yes and No kinda answers.
Different styles have different theory and different approaches to any given situation. Hung Gar students may stand their ground and crush you with their powerful Tiger Claws. Monkey students may jump around hoping to distract you then pinch you in boys. Mantis fighters want to get in close to trap your hands to apply their technique. But in the end, a punch is a punch… A kick is a kick, yes?
When you look at why is there different stlyes and why not just one big Chinese martial art style. There are theories like using body power VS whipping power. Body power uses the legs to connect to the earth and drive thru the waist and express it in the hands (or head or foot etc etc). Whipping power use speed and torque to increase power in the hit. There are many other variables such as these thru out Chinese Kung Fu that give each style it’s uniqueness.
You can cross train all of these any time you want, but in the end… it will all become your own personal interpretation then. If you train Hung Gar and Monkey you will have a mix… Hung Monkey so to speak. This is ok if you like the results of your training. Because it’s all you. Some people don’t like this because you have “spoiled” a style. I don’t think it matters much in todays society.
In the end YES you can mix styles, but NO you will not have anything pure anymore.
ginosifu
Sure style matters, they’re all human creations and often have different training systems and focus (and some really are just more intelligently designed for their purpose than others). I don’t see how what style you practice couldn’t matter. Everything matters.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076774]This is a bit of thread Necro… but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing? [/QUOTE]
Style does matter. That is why styles exist, as each will have something special to offer.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076774]Yes, there are nuances to every “style” but that’s really all they are… “nuances”- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.[/QUOTE]
There is a lot more involved as far as differences are concerned. In the TCMAs one has to study a given style(s) more profoundly in order to go beyond seeing the superficial differences.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1076774]So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can’t we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because… ?[/QUOTE]
TCMA style can be trained if you do it relevantly. however, IMHO, the most important aspect of crosstraining TCMA is to build high level skill and understanding in one, before you go on to cross train in another.
Of course, if you happen to be living in a temple and training every day, under genuine masters, then perhaps you could be taught more than one system at the same time.
You can crosstrain in anything. Some styles/theories/training methods are discordant but you can evaluate them and adapt what you want out of the experience.
What matters is that you develop a fighting system out of fighting experience, not what somebody else claims is good. If it’s an exercise system you want, create one that works for you.
If it’s artistic preservation you want, stay with one system and plumb the depths. That’s when “style” matters.
jd
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076822]You can crosstrain in anything.[/QUOTE]
IMHO, that only works in theory. There are many here that have cross trained their incomplete knowledge and understanding of a given style of kung fu with other, many times irrelevant, arts. They claim that it has improved their fighting skills, but wether this is true or not, their comments, as far as their kung fu understanding is concerned comes across as rather clueless.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076822]Some styles/theories/training methods are discordant but you can evaluate them and adapt what you want out of the experience.[/QUOTE]
IMHO, you can only do that if you have built enough understanding of your core style, that is if you are lucky enough to have had authentic training in it, in this day and age of Mcdojos…
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076822]What matters is that you develop a fighting system out of fighting experience, not what somebody else claims is good. [/QUOTE]
No matter what discipline one endeavors to learn, sooner or later one has to take up what someone else claims to be “good”.
Also, we are discussing Kung fu fighting systems. To learn kung fu you will need to learn from authentic masters and sifus. That means that inherently you will initially be exposed to what someone else (who presumably knows more than you) considers as “good”. This concept is true in many disciplines.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076822]If it’s an exercise system you want, create one that works for you.[/QUOTE]
IMHO, before creating, one has to learn a given discipline properly from authentic tuition, in order to gain the faculties required.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076822]If it’s artistic preservation you want, stay with one system and plumb the depths. That’s when “style” matters.
[/QUOTE]
As far as authentid kung fu practice is concerned, that is all that one may need to become a very potent fighter.
Hardwork108, I do not disagree with any of your comments. I wrote from my own experience and prejudice. If you reread what I wrote and consider it assumed that my opinions were meant for the eyes of other hardworking tcma folks who do spend years with a good teacher they may make more sense. For example, I know a guy who has trained in such disparate arts as southern praying mantis, taijiquan and bajiquan. He’s been practicing for over 40 years and he uses it all in one way or another. He continues to learn and refine and let nothing but death keep him apart from his teachers.
That’s the kind of cross training I’m talking about.
Those other guys: the pick-and-choosers, the dabblers, the alphabet soup group…well, I don’t care about them.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;1076834]Hardwork108, I do not disagree with any of your comments. I wrote from my own experience and prejudice. If you reread what I wrote and consider it assumed that my opinions were meant for the eyes of other hardworking tcma folks who do spend years with a good teacher they may make more sense. For example, I know a guy who has trained in such disparate arts as southern praying mantis, taijiquan and bajiquan. He’s been practicing for over 40 years and he uses it all in one way or another. He continues to learn and refine and let nothing but death keep him apart from his teachers.
That’s the kind of cross training I’m talking about.
Those other guys: the pick-and-choosers, the dabblers, the alphabet soup group…well, I don’t care about them.[/QUOTE]
Understood, and thanks for the clarification. 
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076777]A mantis “hook punch” is to use your fist to hit on the “side” of your opponent’s head. A SC “hook punch” is to use your fore-arm to hit the “back” of your opponent’s head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.[/QUOTE]
The large hook punch in Qingdao and Yantai QX is the exactly the same as you have listed as SC hook punch. Forearm to base of skull/top of neck. This is also the same for most families of MH and TJMH in the mainland.
(of course there is the short hook too)
BT
[QUOTE=-N-;1076796]It might depend on which branch of Mantis.
For us, we have the entire range from fist to temple through forearm to back of head.
Superficially, it may be considered fist. But in application, forearm is preferred. When attacking, we want to close in enough that the forearm can contact and body and leg can strike as well.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. It depends on what target is presented.
BT
I think style matters, not as much as teacher and student, but certainly different styles have different things to offer, though I suppose the higher(lower?) level the players the less the differences? Good basics are good basics, but beyond basics things get more interesting/divergent.
But, I think there’s absolutely no reason why we can’t do southern today and northern tomorrow. (Assuming we’ve got the basics of one figured out first) I think it’s a good learning experience, and also fun, to do different forms with different flavors.
…or different punches for that matter.