Should "throw" be above all styles?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1055669]Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?

If you train hip throw, should you adapt your style to fit your hip hrow, or should you adapt the hip throw to fit your style?

This may not be an issue for those who believe in “cross training”. For those who believes in “special body mechanics”, “core style”, and “style flavor”, what’s your opinion on this?[/QUOTE]

I believe that “throw” is a technique that can be adapted to most, if not all, styles of combat. That is if it is not embedded within their curriculum already. Furthermore, I believe that in some cases, one can still add his core style’s flavor, to throwing as well.

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It’s very easy to tell whether a TCMA system contains “hip throw” or not. If you can find this posture in your form then you system will have “hip throw”.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6978/sct2.jpg

If you can only find this posture in your system, you stll can not prove that your system has hip throw.

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2180/horsestance12.jpg

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1055757]Furthermore, I believe that in some cases, one can still add his core style’s flavor, to throwing as well.[/QUOTE]
Could you elaborate on this please? I’m interesting in how “style flavor” can be used to enhance the throw. Assume that we don’t talk about the “set up” and “follow on” but just throw itself.

No matter what core style flavor that you want to add into the hip throw, you still cannot change the basic requirements such as:

  • Your right foot should be in front of your opponent’s front foot.
  • Your left foot should be in front of your opponent’s left foot.
  • You need to use one arm to wrap around your opponent arm (assume no-gi situation).
  • You need to use one arm to wrap around your opponent’s waist.
  • You need to touch your hip below you opponent’s belly.

Those rules are much more important than the rules defined by your core style.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1055759]
Could you elaborate on this please? I’m interesting in how “style flavor” can be used to enhance the throw. Assume that we don’t talk about the “set up” and “follow on” but just throw itself.[/QUOTE]

I did not say that one’s style’s flavor can be used to “enhance” the throw, I said that one can add his core style’s flavor. My idea includes the “set up”, and the “follow on”, as well.:slight_smile:

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Very true and I agree, but there are techniques and there are core style concepts and principles. For example, some styles may go out chasing to make a throw, others will “wait” for the throw (or to hit), or the opportunity. Just like, some styles will chase to strike the opponent, while others will wait for the opponent to “move first”, before they themselves react by “first moving”, that is, starting second, but getting there first.

25

Agree that different style will have different “set up” and different “follow on” finish moves. Whether you are a boxer, MT guy, or BJJ guy, the moment that you train hip throw, the moment that you have to fulfill the hip throw requirements.

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YKW,
gottcha, was wondering why you were using japanese, I dont know much about Judo or ju jitsu so I was confused.
I know shuai jiao places different mechanics adn body manipulqtion than other throwing arts adn some fo the throws are unique to chinese wrestling, and place different emphasis on certain tehniques that make it work very well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Unless you are training throws against actual resisting opponents, for all intents and purposes, your style doesn’t “have” them.

do you always think that whatever you do has resisting opponents and whatever every one else does, doesnt? you sound like a broken record with the same response to every thread.
every fighting art in the world is desinged against a resisiting opponents otherwise why would you train to defend and fight?

I do not think however that all styles have throws, i might be mistaken but throwing is only found in some styles not all.

to me for a style to be well rounded for fighting aspects, you gotta have blocks punches kicks, joint locks throws and ground fighting. otherwise you have a hole in yourr style that can be penetrated.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1055776]I know shuai jiao places different mechanics adn body manipulqtion than other throwing arts adn some fo the throws are unique to chinese wrestling, and place different emphasis on certain tehniques that make it work very well.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I intentionally choice “hip throw” as example. It’s very dificult to modify the hip throw to be different. Of course even in hip throw, you can still use your

  • hip to bounce your opponent off the ground, or
  • legs to lift your opponent off the ground.

You can also use your arm to

  • wrap around your opponent’s waist, or
  • underhook your opponent’s shoulder.

Those are minor difference that does not change to general guideline. I like to look at MA from the angle of “all MA look alike” than the angle of “all MA look different.”

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1055776] was wondering why you were using japanese, I dont know much about Judo or ju jitsu so I was confused.[/QUOTE]
Judo did something good and that’s they still use the original Japanese terms. In SC, we have the original Chinese terms. We also have different terms for different SC orginizations. For example, the USCA uses term “hip throw”. But the ACSCA uses term “waist lift”. The original Chinese term is (Wen).

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055744]Unless you are training throws against actual resisting opponents, for all intents and purposes, your style doesn’t “have” them.[/QUOTE]

Your knowledge base is fascinating! I love how you absolutely know what every other style dose not have.:smiley:

Awesome.

I have sneaking suspicion that if you spent as much time training as you do high fiving yourself on here you’d be even more awesome than you already are!

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[QUOTE=pazman;1055753]Wrestling does have jabs, crosses and uppercuts. They are “hidden” in the ancient wrestling forms. A wrestling coach will only reveal these ancient “secrets” to his most trusted disciples.:cool:[/QUOTE]

The only “secret” is consistant focused hard work in a well constructed system based on practical training methods.

There are for basic methods of combat. Punch, grab, kick, throw. Nothiing new under the sun except the man practicing it.

Skill, Speed, timing, courage, the will to do damage (viscousness) and experience are the root elements of free fighting success.

Experience training solo and harmoniously with classmates introduces you to realization of self. Knowing who you truly are is a blessing because when that connection is clear lost is the ability to delude yourself.
Experience fighting others introduces you to various stylistic archetypes and endless variables of personality in combination.

if you work lightly, sporadic with no real focus you may not fare well.
If you work hard constantly pushing beyond you comfort zone you will grow.
If you work beyond your supposed limitations to a fatigue, then dig deep and press on to trope you will discover your extraordinary self.

Never quit and always be willing to go above and beyond what you opponent has the will to do.

My old friend Hayward Nishioka always said, if you’ve never worked out until you could not walk, then you’ve never worked out.

I love fighters who walk about believing they are unstoppable.
Ego can only carry you only so far, right up to the stop next to your worse a ss whipping ever..

Most of the great fighter I’ve know always assumed their opponent was stronger and more skilled. They deal moment to moment, defense tight, gaging ranges. If the opponent is more skilled they are ready. If he is less skilled they patently wait for a mistake and exploit it in spades.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1055746]Judo people will have no idea what you are talking about if you don’t use the Japanese terms, and it’s easier to find the Japanese name for something than the shuai jiao term. Of course, some of us also use English :wink:

Basicly, there are throws/takedowns you do with a jacket and those you do without. A jacket changes the game a lot. There is some cross over, but the gripping effects BOTh offense and defense

I would say there are about 8 or 10 basic techniques, with variations, follow ups, “chains” etc etc[/QUOTE]

One of the beautiful elements of the judo system is the elegant organization of it’s technique catalogue.

31

YKW

That’s why I intentionally choice “hip throw” as example. It’s very dificult to modify the hip throw to be different. Of course even in hip throw, you can still use your

those are minor difference that does not change to general guideline. I like to look at MA from the angle of “all MA look alike” than the angle of “all MA look different.”

Judo did something good and that’s they still use the original Japanese terms. In SC, we have the original Chinese terms. We also have different terms for different SC orginizations. For example, the USCA uses term “hip throw”. But the ACSCA uses term “waist lift”. The original Chinese term is (Wen).

I totaly understand now thank you. yes its funny we d not have Wen in our shaui jiao and I learned everythign in chinese. nothing I have was translated, that sucked becuse wehn I moved to SF i did not speak or know any of the therm and everyone in my class did.

LOKHOPKUEN

The only “secret” is consistant focused hard work in a well constructed system based on practical training methods.

There are for basic methods of combat. Punch, grab, kick, throw. Nothiing new under the sun except the man practicing it.

Skill, Speed, timing, courage, the will to do damage (viscousness) and experience are the root elements of free fighting success.

Experience training solo and harmoniously with classmates introduces you to realization of self. Knowing who you truly are is a blessing because when that connection is clear lost is the ability to delude yourself.
Experience fighting others introduces you to various stylistic archetypes and endless variables of personality in combination.

if you work lightly, sporadic with no real focus you may not fare well.
If you work hard constantly pushing beyond you comfort zone you will grow.
If you work beyond your supposed limitations to a fatigue, then dig deep and press on to trope you will discover your extraordinary self.

Never quit and always be willing to go above and beyond what you opponent has the will to do

That was beautifully written my friend, excellent post.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1055669]Do you agree that the “throw” should be “above” all styles, and there is only “hip throw”, and there is no Taiji hip throw, Longfist hip throw, or WC hip throw?

If you train hip throw, should you adapt your style to fit your hip hrow, or should you adapt the hip throw to fit your style?

This may not be an issue for those who believe in “cross training”. For those who believes in “special body mechanics”, “core style”, and “style flavor”, what’s your opinion on this?[/QUOTE]

Yes… I’ve found that the more I’ve been exposed to other styles… the more things seem to be the same. Just different names and theoretical set ups, but the execution is always the same.

I’ve only done Judo, BJJ, and Mantis - but I’ve trained with and against collegiate wrestlers turned amateur MMA fighters… and the throws all seem to be the same. The biggest difference I’ve found so far is that only Judo and Wrestling commit to the “big” throws like the hip throws / toss, or fireman’s / Kata Garuma, or Shoulder Throw / Arm Drag / Sei Nage.

BJJ guys will pull guard… a lot… and Mantis was mostly tripping / foot throws.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1055776]YKW,
do you always think that whatever you do has resisting opponents and whatever every one else does, doesnt? you sound like a broken record with the same response to every thread.[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying no other style trains against resisting opponents. What I am saying is there are a lot of TMA schools that don’t train throws and takedowns against resisting opponents. Just look at all the examples of guys who have never done a throw, but think throws are in their forms.

every fighting art in the world is desinged against a resisiting opponents otherwise why would you train to defend and fight?

“Designed” against resisting opponents? What does that mean? How do you design a system around resisting opponents?

Plenty of people believe their techniques are “too dangerous” to train full force and train accordingly.

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Just look at all the examples of guys who have never done a throw, but think throws are in their forms.

haha made me laugh… so true so true.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055844]blah blah blah Just look at all the examples of guys who have never done a throw, but think throws are in their forms.[/quote]

please, give us examples of guys who have never done a throw but think they are in their forms. “all the examples”. I assume this means that there are a lot of them, so, please show. :slight_smile:

“Designed” against resisting opponents? What does that mean? How do you design a system around resisting opponents?
By using the self evident, then testing it. How would you do it?

Plenty of people believe their techniques are “too dangerous” to train full force and train accordingly.
Who are these plenty of people? Would you agree that it is dangerous to use a kwan dao on someone with full force? how about an axe?

should those all be made of wood and padded up along with the player to make it more “realistic” :rolleyes:

I laugh at your puny and limited view of martial arts and the world. :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1055968]please, give us examples of guys who have never done a throw but think they are in their forms. “all the examples”. I assume this means that there are a lot of them, so, please show. :)[/QUOTE]

I’ll let you do the search on that. Pretty easy to find people posting about extrapolating from forms.

Who are these plenty of people? Would you agree that it is dangerous to use a kwan dao on someone with full force? how about an axe?

should those all be made of wood and padded up along with the player to make it more “realistic” :

That would be much closer to reality and more effective than pretending to hit each other.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1055726]I’m confused why some of the throws you guys are listing are in Japanese when shuia jiao would be the throws used in CMA.

to answer YKW, I feel that you should adapt the throw to fit your style not the other way around. Its the lead in or set up to execute that will make the difference bewtween flavors of styles.

8 step is fortunate to have 40 of shuai jiao’s throw’s and its applications. BTW the first throw leanred is “Go” its a twiting arm while hooking leg throw… Hip throw as you called it YKW is taught much f a r t h er down the line.[/QUOTE]

Uh, because I never studied Shuai Jiao, but I did train in jujutsu for decades. :slight_smile:

In our Mantis I only teach the sweeps and trips commonly found in the forms.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1055844]I’m not saying no other style trains against resisting opponents. What I am saying is there are a lot of TMA schools that don’t train throws and takedowns against resisting opponents. Just look at all the examples of guys who have never done a throw, but think throws are in their forms.
[/QUOTE]

Man you guys don’t like Knifefighter… KFM is like a bunch of quibbling old ladies… there’s nothing wrong with this statement

I’ll use Osoto Gari as an example: In a lot of mantis forms, there’s a move that is very much like Judo’s Osoto Gari. If all that you did to practice that move was doing the form… you wouldn’t know the finer details that you need to do to get it to work without the other person having the ability to “step out” of the throw. Basically- the real version isn’t pretty enough to be in a form because it’s “nose to the toes, and butt cheek to butt cheek”.

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mightb
ppl dont like knifefighter because he doesnt discuss things, he just jams down ppls throats what he does is better than whatever body else does, and what he trains in is superior to everything else and only he knows how to fight against resisting opponents…

that and he is rude 99% of the time to other members and carries himself as a short miserable man with no happy life at home. totaly insecure about himself and his ability.

why else do people try to bully othe people? because they never got enough attention…