what were the time periods between the first one and then the other trips?
thats a bit odd to all the sudden adopt some technique or training from people who have been doing it for decades then come back and whip their own ass with it:confused:
[QUOTE=goju;973967]what were the time periods between the first one and then the other trips?
thats a bit odd to all the sudden adopt some technique or training from people who have been doing it for decades then come back and whip their own ass with it:confused:[/QUOTE]
No one said anything about whipping asses.
Oyama adapted the MT round kick (low and high) with a slight variation and adapted the knees and elbows.
if we step and you destroy me with your game, then i shadow it and make it mine and come back and hand you your ass with it, proves who the better fighter is.
also shows a good example of success being partially determined by training methods.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;973969]No one said anything about whipping asses.
Oyama adapted the MT round kick (low and high) with a slight variation and adapted the knees and elbows.[/QUOTE]
bah! thats it!!! those techniques arent exclusive to mt karate has always had the shin kick and elbows and knees
[QUOTE=goju;973974]bah! thats it!!! those techniques arent exclusive to mt karate has always had the shin kick and elbows and knees[/QUOTE]
Dude, seriously, that’s not the point, it was how they were being trained at the time.
Shorty after Kurosawa, Oyama’s main man, left the Kyokushin and set up Japanese Kickboxing.
i know thats why i was noting with my other post:rolleyes:
its obvious it would be the traning not a super secret kick they picked up:D
[QUOTE=goju;973905]he does have some what of a point though
id rather learn muay thai boran its more complete of a style[/QUOTE]
Actually most legit camps have some old bareknuckle techniques still mixed in; for example Sit Yodtong in Thailand is not only one of the top camps for ring muay thai, but their traditional muay thai is spot on as well.
My gym teaches mae mai muay thai chaiya in addition to ring muay thai.
I tend to be a bit wary of folks that teach the traditional/bareknuckle muay thai in isolation anymore.
The muay boran most people think of is really just a performance art any more.
Tony Jaa’s movie created a whole generation of folks who want to learn “t3h r3@l l33t d3@dly muay thai”, which usually ends up only being those techniques that are d@mn near impossible to pull off.
Traditional techniques pay more in muay thai ring fights, so if they were that effective you’d think these starving fighters (who get paid less than boxing or mma fighters get out of bed for) would be pulling these techniques off all the time.
Making bad generalizations about muay thai just coz you read it in a magazine or online somewhere is just as bad as making bad generalizations about kung fu. In this case it’s even worse than a lot of the “anti-kung fu bias” you complain about on these boards, because it’s done with absolutely no first-hand experience.
You also get knucklheads like this chuckled!ck who makes up some phony bs to discredit “ring muay thai” and then shows a standard muay thai leg kick as some secret “muay boran” technique.
Go with real muay thai from Thailand and you’ll have access to as much of the real traditional stuff as you can learn. Go with t3h s3cr3t d3@dly and you’re probably going to be taken for a ride. I will say Col Amnat’s stuff is pretty good though.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;973976]Dude, seriously, that’s not the point, it was how they were being trained at the time.
Shorty after Kurosawa, Oyama’s main man, left the Kyokushin and set up Japanese Kickboxing.[/QUOTE]
On a side note, Fujiwara deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn’t fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s…
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn’t spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;973996]Actually most legit camps have some old bareknuckle techniques still mixed in; for example Sit Yodtong in Thailand is not only one of the top camps for ring muay thai, but their traditional muay thai is spot on as well.
My gym teaches mae mai muay thai chaiya in addition to ring muay thai.
I tend to be a bit wary of folks that teach the traditional/bareknuckle muay thai in isolation anymore.
The muay boran most people think of is really just a performance art any more.
Tony Jaa’s movie created a whole generation of folks who want to learn “t3h r3@l l33t d3@dly muay thai”, which usually ends up only being those techniques that are d@mn near impossible to pull off.
Traditional techniques pay more in muay thai ring fights, so if they were that effective you’d think these starving fighters (who get paid less than boxing or mma fighters get out of bed for) would be pulling these techniques off all the time.
Making bad generalizations about muay thai just coz you read it in a magazine or online somewhere is just as bad as making bad generalizations about kung fu. In this case it’s even worse than a lot of the “anti-kung fu bias” you complain about on these boards, because it’s done with absolutely no first-hand experience.
You also get knucklheads like this chuckled!ck who makes up some phony bs to discredit “ring muay thai” and then shows a standard muay thai leg kick as some secret “muay boran” technique.
Go with real muay thai from Thailand and you’ll have access to as much of the real traditional stuff as you can learn. Go with t3h s3cr3t d3@dly and you’re probably going to be taken for a ride. I will say Col Amnat’s stuff is pretty good though.[/QUOTE]
oh i know in thailand its suppsoed to be rare to even find a muay thai boran teacher to begin with:D
a lot of the thai coaches sucker in yokels into thinking they are teaching them ancient thai boxing when they are just teaching them basic sport mt lol
[QUOTE=goju;974017]oh i know in thailand its suppsoed to be rare to even find a muay thai boran teacher to begin with:D
a lot of the thai coaches sucker in yokels into thinking they are teaching them ancient thai boxing when they are just teaching them basic sport mt lol[/QUOTE]
usually it’s not anything near as useful as basic sport mt… with the possible exception of the cheesed!ck who’s vid i posted…
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;974006]On a side note, Fujiwara deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn’t fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s…
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn’t spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Good points.
Though I often got the feeling that the sense of superiority over Muay Thai in the past among some kung fu stylists (at least overseas) was more often a nationalistic thing, more than it was MT’s fewer stances, less if any form work, etc. Although, I do remember years ago reading a Hong Kong kung fu magazine from about the mid-1970s, after the Thais decimated a team from HK. There were some ‘reaction articles’ featuring some well-known masters who talked about techniques that ‘should’ beat MT and their ‘too few techniques’. Kind of a coulda-shoulda-woulda reaction.
I find it humoring when Muay Thai is “put down” or techniques or “too simple”. The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.
Many Kung Fu styles have the same techniques found in Muay Thai, but they are not trained correctly. For example, throwing a flippy roundhouse in the air with a gay pose thown in is, suprisingly enough:rolleyes:, not as effective as kicking Thai mitts or a heavybag. This is just one example but the point can be seen. Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;974006]On a side note, Fujiwara deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn’t fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s…
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn’t spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, many good things came out of their initial defeats.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;974119]Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?[/QUOTE]
I’ve always maintained that Sanda is a separate style; don’t get me wrong, it’s just that there are certain truths to the training of almost any sport fighter.
Boxing, mma, american kickboxing, sanda, and muay thai all train in gyms with bags, pads, sparring, and rounds; but the techniques & strategies for each are unique.
Yes, in many ways a round kick is just a round kick, but akb, muay thai, and sanda all have peculiarities for when, where, why, and how they throw it. Then again, even sanda programs from China tend to have slightly different technique than most of the programs in the States (especially when it comes to hands). And on top of that, each gym has it’s own specific methods.
While I had heard that sanshou programs in China were known to bring in Thai coaches to help them improve; the sanshou methodology, strategy, and techniques are unique.
In other words, sometimes there are enough differences to be something more than just a gym preference.
Looking at those Chinese Sanshou training vids available from the store, there’s sooo much from the basic training principles that’s just “wrong” by “universal” muay thai standards that it’s different at a fundamental level. Same goes for the punching in the video, at a certain fundamental level it’s just different than western boxing. It is its own thing.
Going back to “traditional” styles; as long as the training includes the “truths” of training like a fighter, I don’t think anybody is disputing the validity of the training. It just hasn’t really been demonstrated on a large scale yet that forms and posture training alone can get you there - or can even make you a superior fighter just by having them in your program. That is to say, they are just another exercise and their absence or inclusion shouldn’t affect the style’s validity.
im looking forward to seeing this all go down though, i hope it does.
imo as long as there is a fair judge and both sides bring their A players, and the rules are decided on work for everyone it will be roughly even. one side will have 3 wins or it will be 2 win 2 loss 1 draw and tie it.
This story is all about fight promotions
But this is an interesting tangent for sure, as long as it doesn’t go back to the ol’ Shaolin monk in MMA rant. :rolleyes:
Sat, 12 Dec 2009
When muay Thai meets kung fu
Foshan in southern China’s Guangdong province – the birthplace of the late martial arts legend Bruce Lee – is gearing up for a battle royale on Dec 19 between the forces of muay Thai kick-boxing and kung fu.
The fuss all began when the Thai athletes declared they wanted to come to China to "wipe out’’ the historic Shaolin Temple – considered one of the birthplaces of kung fu.
But the Shaolin monks refused to rise to that bait. "In the history of the Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others,’’ Zheng Shumin, a representative of the temple, told the Chinese press.
Enter the Emei Martial Arts Association, followers of another style of kung fu and based in Sichuan province, who are now vowing to show these Thai interlopers the “real Chinese kung fu”.
"We should stand up to such defiance,’’ said Zhang Ji, a representative of the association.
Meanwhile, Hongkong, the city that Lee called home, is gearing up for the debut of the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) movement that, in recent years, has gained incredible worldwide popularity.
“Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport in the world and as Bruce Lee is considered by many to be the father of the sport, it only makes sense that Hongkong have an MMA tournament with some of the best competition the region has to offer,” event organiser Chris Pollak said in a press release.
The inaugural "Legend’’ competition will be held in Hongkong on Jan 11 (www.legendfc.com) and will feature 18 of the world’s top MMA fighters, including China’s two-time national sanda champion Zhao Zilong.
MMA pits fighters from martial arts styles such as sanda (China), judo (Japan), muay Thai (Thailand) and taekwondo (Korea) against each other in a format that could end in knockout, submission, technical knockout or referee decision.
MMA has now surpassed wrestling in the United States in terms of popularity. – AFP-Relaxnews
Shaolin vs. Muay Thai
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;974119]The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.
[/QUOTE]
Is true
I hope there going to be a video that 19 December. I want to se the face of the Shaolin when he lose, because he sure going to lose. These Shaolin don’t train the real Kung Fu of old times, they just train modern wushu, only forms and forms etc hahahahah:D these Shaolin going to learn a good lesson from the Tai Boxing guys, these Tai guys have legs like stones, they can move like leopards!!
oo ooo i must see this much hahahahah 
today is 19 , does this match happen any update?
here: http://video.sina.com.cn/sports/o/v/2009-12-20/003237070.shtml
i didnt even see what really knocked him out in this first match…
oh, and it says he is a shaolin disciple now.. after the fact, i guess.
looks like they were playing by sanda rules anyhow.
Spinning left backfist to the temple followed by what looks like a right palm strike or inner forearm to the back of the head. He may also have delivered a left punch as he was dragging/following the guy down.