Thank You
Thanks
If we are talking about the same person,
Ma Kim Fung, taught in Calgary, Canada for
a number of years and has moved to Vancouver.
I’m not sure but from what I understand he is retired.
One of his senior students still teaches in Calgary.
ops I see you wanted this by email : - (
Buddahpalm,
It’s me, NorthernShaolin.
I just remember, GM Ma Ching Fung has a son in Vancover who is teaching in the Ma Family Association. His name is Danny Ma. One of Ma’s recent senior student and a good friend of Danny is Jun Y. Ing who worked for the Government Telecommunications Agency. I’ve lost contact with him.
As for Sun Yu Fung, King of Sabers in Seven Proviences, I have some info on him. What specifically did you want to know? Hey, did you know that he taught Suk Kim, who played the villian with the large claw hand in one of Bruce Lee’s movie?
Hi Northern Shaolin
Thanks again for your help Do you know the contact address of Danny Ma, Ing, GM Ma Ching Fung or the Ma Family Association ?
Regarding Sun Yu Fung.
These are some of my questions, but any information will be of help in my search.
Once again thanks “Northern Shaolin” and “R” for all your help.
Here are some answers
Buddahpalm,
Sun Yu Fung was a very private person and did not like to talk about himself, hence many people do not know much about him except that he taught at the Ching Wu School in Canton in the 1920’s. After years of researching him including interviewing people who learned from him, this is a summary of what I know about SYF in a nutshell.
Sun Yu Fung has several teachers with his first was Chang Chan K’uei, nickname Big Saber Chang who was a student of the famous Shangtung Green Forest Robber, Ma Hsiang. All of Sun skills in sabers came from Chang. Sun also liked wrestling and would enter the local tournaments in Ching City which was not far from Peking. His best friend was Ma Lang and Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught both men his Shaolin Lo Han; officially called Northern Shaolin Yan Lo Han, with Yan meaning the third generation. Ma Lang became very famous in Shangtung while SYF became a security guard in the Chen Wei Piao Co. His saber techniques and his Lo Han was tested by many famous banditslike Liu Tien Hu and fighters in the five provences that the cargo was carried. By the late 1800, SYF was promoted to the Chief Body guard in Hopei Provence. Later he established his own security company called Ning Yuan Piao Co. Fame traveled fast and he became known as Thirteen Provence Escort Buerau Chief.. Meanwhile Ma Lang wrote his famous book called China New Wu Shu, 1911, with Yang Hong Xiu who later taught Wang Tzu Ping. Never could find this book.
Originally Huo Yuan Chia invited Ma Lang to teach at the Ching Wu school in Shanghai but instead, Ma recommended SYF and in 1921 SYF taught in Shanghai. Later that year he transferred to Kwangchou (Canton) Ching Wu. His curriculum was the standard 10 Ching Wu sets for the first two years then his specialty, BSL LH and it consisted of 18 hand sets. In addition he was known to teach five famous sabers and five famous spear sets besides the other usual weapons such as staff, hooks, daggers, Kwan Do, chains, etc. His favorite time in teaching was to spar all his best students at once blindfolded. None of his students could touch SYF but he was able to knock them all down.
The five sabers are: Pa Kua saber, Loose Wrist Saber, Split Door Saber, Foot Soldier Saber, and Plum Blossom Saber.
The five spears sets are: Raise Spirit Spear, Plum Blossom Spear, Five Tiger Spear, Splitting Door Spear, and Deity Spear
In his late years (at 63 years old), he liked to perform Eight Drunken Fairies Immortal fist set. He passed away at the age of 88 (in 1946). There is only one picture that I am aware of that exist of SYF.
He had 13 disciples: Hwang Hsiao Hsia (who is regarded as #1 disciple), Husang Hon Sheng (who taught Bruce Lee after he fought Wong Jack Man), Li Han Chu, Li Chung Chu (who was the first Ching Wu official to open a Ching Wu school in SF, USA in 1935 and I had the opportunity to meet), Jung Hwang Sheng, Ts’ai Tso Shih, Tai Chien (better known to us as Suk Kim,the villian in BL movie), Lin Hsi K’un, Sun Shao Chu, Sun Wen Jung, Shen Chao Wen and Lin Shao K’un.
In addition he had many students such as Ma Ching Fung (who is Wong Jack Man’s second teacher), Lin Shao Lui, Sun Wen Yang, Yi Cho Jen, Liu Ching Kuei and Chen Te Chien.
Many of these disciples and students have passed away or are very old now. Some are living in Hong Kong, China, Canada, and in SF Bay Area but are all retired from teaching.
Hope this helps in your research. Please let me know.
northernshaolin.
I recently found out and
sadly report that Ma Ching Fung past away
late last year at the age 86.
ä
NorthernShaolin
Wow ! Your depth of research is amazing !
Would it be possible for you to write a book about all the different histories of the BSL lineages and stories. I think it would be a most worthwhile endeavor.
Your answers brought up a few more questions.
Sorry to overload you with so many questions.
Thanks so much.
R
Thanks for the sad information on Ma Kim Fung..
More answers
Buddhapalm,
Monk Yuan Tung T’an was a monk from the Shaolin Temple indirectly and lived in the caves called Shaolin Caves. There are two caves near the Shaolin Temple in Honan and when the temple was destroyed in the 1700’s, 13 monks escaped and a few monks fled to these caves. They were known as the Lo Han Caves because the monks practiced NSL LH. When the temple was restored, some monks choose to stay at the caves and developed an off site shaolin like temple area where they taught the next two generation of monks NSL LH.
Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught only Sun Yu Fung and Ma Lang before returning the the mountains and never to be seen again. He told SYF and ML that his sole purpose of leaving the mountains was to seek students and teach his NSL LH before he passed away. Once SYF and ML completed their lessons, the Monk told both of them that they must teach or the style will fade. The total number of hand sets were 108 and were simply called Northern Shaolin Yan Lo Han. Or just Northern Shaolin Lo Han. Monk Yuan Tung T’an gave a secrete manual to SYF but it was never seen by any of Sun’s 13 disciples. As one disciple told me, SYF could not read or write so this ‘so call secrete manual’ was useless to him. Still rumors are strong that he had this manual. SYF only taught 18 hand sets of Lo Han because hat was all that he could remember out of the 108 sets. These sets were divided into 6 Hard, 6 Soft and 6 hard & soft. These sets had special breathing techniques.
During SYF time at the Ching Wu there was a set call Duan Da that was taught. Do not know if he personnally taught that set because he only wanted to teach the most senior disciples. I know for sure that Pa Kua saber and Five Tiger Spear is still being taught and maybe Plum Blossom Saber in the Ching Wu schools but the other sets are questionable at this time.
Big Saber Chang knew NSL but later learned Pa Kua and became more well known in this style. I’ve looked for more info on the Shangtung Green Forest Robber but came up empty. He was very well known years ago until the 1930’s then nothing but maybe a little hearsay about him. He had a classmate named Niu Kang who was well known in Fukein Provence. (SYF is headed in this same direction where he be known as a name in CMA but no body really remembers him. In another 20 years, Kuo Yu Chaang’s name will be the same and in 40 years the name, Bruce Lee, will be there too.)
I can get you a copy of a picture of SYF. No typical small asian guy who was built like a bear. It’s well known that SYF alone killed a whole stronghold of bandits armed with only his saber. He also had such an iron grip that when he grasped an opponent’s arm, he could break the bone in the arm by just squeezing it.
I am aware of only 3 of the original disciples alive and 2 are in HK and one in SF area. He Husang Hon Sheng’ school in HK still exist but he has since retired. He runs the HK Ching Wu school. The other is the actor Suk Kim. The one here in the states speaks only Chinese and is in his late 80’s or early 90’s. He too has retired from teaching
Hwang Hsiao Hsia recently passed away in China but he has a branch school in HK. Another student of Sun is Lin Shao Li who may have a school in HK, She is in her 80’s now. The only other school is Ma Ching Fung’s son in Vancover as mention by ‘R’.
R,
Thanks for the information. Sad news.
NorthernShaolin
Thanks again.
A few more questions.
Some answers
Buddhapalm,
I do not think Monk Yuan Tung T’an is connected to the Yuan Tung Temple. Are you sure of this spelling? There was a temple called Yang T’ung Fu that was part of the five temples of Shaolin Temple. The other four were Fukien, Shansi Wu Tai, Kwangtung An Hui. These were large temples that were as big as Honan and taught Shaolin MA at the end of the Yuan Dynasty. However, Yang T’ung Fu was destroyed at the end of the Yuen dynasty.
Ma Lang had to know the rest of the NSL LH sets because SYF and ML learned together from Monk YTT. This is why I am trying to locate Ma Lang’s book which was written at the turn of the century and was revised as late as 1915. This book was very popular around this time and the title of his book is China’s New Wu Shu (Martial Arts). Ma Lang was very famous in Shangtung Provence and did not join Ching Wu when invited by Huo Yuan Chia because he was working a plan to teach his NSL LH at high schools and other outlets that would be supported by the military government. Everything was going according to plan but something happen to cause the government to stop the project. However during this period of 15 years, I sure that there were many students of NSL LH in the Shangtung area.
Sun Yu Fung had a son that he was very proud. His name was Sun Wen Yung and was in the Ninth War District General Chief of Martial Art Training Officer. Sometime between 1934 and 1935, he was killed in battle when the Nationalist made a big push to the north. SYF was teaching at Ching Wu at the time and with the sudden news of his son death, SYF went into deep mourning. He soon came to a new awaking in the truth of life and left Ching Wu. He went to help teach at the National Phycisal Association where his top disciple, Hwang Hsiao Hsia was teaching. At the end of WW2, SYF retired and went to the Wu Tai Mountains in Shensi Provence to become a hermit. Later he returned to his home in Honan Provence and passed away. If the manual was with his son, it is lost for sure, given the war and horrible conditions.
As far as what the manual contain, no one alive seems to knows. Sun Wen Yung’s partner, Li Hon Chia, states he never saw the manual and no one ever mention it all those years that they were together practicing and learning. He was very close to SWY. Generally manuals of this nature would contain exactly what you said, poems of moves which would not mean anything if one did not know the style already.
Yes, Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught weapons to SYF. The monk spade and shovel, Plum Blossom double chain, Ground Demon Staff, Plum Blossom Spear to name a few.
Dear NorthernShaolin.
First of all thank you for your candor.
I’m trying to follow the sources of SYF’s forms.
From your post I read that he only taught 18 of the Lohan Shaolin hand forms because that’s all he could remember of what he was taught.
Were any of these 2 man forms?
You say all of SYF’s saber skills came from Chang Chan (a student of Ma Hsiing who, from my
read of your post, was not a Lohan Shaolin student). Are we to assume that Chang taught him Plum Blossom Saber.
Yet you say that Monk Yuan Tung taught SYF Plum Blossom Double Chain and Plum Blossom Spear.
Are you sure that the Plum Blossom form are from Honan Shaolin Lohan Men?
regards
R.
[
[This message was edited by R. on 07-01-01 at 06:30 PM.]
Thanks NorthernShaolin
The YuaTong/YuanTung temple I read about was in Kunming area ? I will double check the province.
It would be great to find a copy of Ma Lang’s book, I shall try to look for it also.
A couple more questions:
I talked to Danny Ma, Ma Kin Fungs son. He told me that Ma Kin Fung did teach my Sigung back in China. He taught him the Ground Demon Pole also known ( Especially to us ) as the (72 Moves) Shaolin Secret Pole.
Do you know where Ma Kin Fung taught in Canton, was it Futsan, or Toisan Ching Wu or KMT School ?
I would like to find out because I want to know who else my Sigung Dea Bak Doo may have learned from, since some forms we practice do not come from Ma Kin Fung (except Shaolin Pole and SYF’s Saber). He must have had exposure to other masters in the vicinity. If I can find the location, perhaps I can find the missing link to the other potential teachers influencing Sigung Dea Bak Doo.
You said Sun Yu Fung was taught Monks Spade, Plum Flower Spear from Monk YuanTong. Our system also has these forms. I am not sure if they are the same, since there are many Plum Flower Spear forms. My spear starts with kicking the spear into action, the Monk Spade finishes with the Spade being swung onto the shoulder, just like Monk Lu Ji Sim paintings.
Look forward to more exciting answers.
Correction on my mistake
R,
Yes there were two man hand to hand sets and they were not regarded as part of the 108 Lo Han hand sets.
After reviewing what I wrote, I should have proof read it before hitting the enter button. Thanks R for point out the confusion in my posting.
Chang taught Mi Tsung to his security guards and may have taught SYF these weapons such as Plum Blossm double chain and Plum Blossom spear. SYF was a service boy and cooked evening meals for the school. The practice room was just outside the kitchen and SYF watched everything. Chang had instructors from many places and SFY had an opportunity to learn many different things from many different styles. Later Chang found out what SFY was doing and make SYF fight some of his student. SYF defeated them and Chang accepted SYF as a student. It is more than likely Chang taught SFY the weapons.
Now, lets clarify the term Plum Blossom. It is a name of the set and not necessary a name of a style. When monks left the temple, many of them created their own weapon sets and thus called them whatever they wanted. Sometimes the name they used were descriptive while other were colorful names.
BUT…
Most of the CMA historians can trace most weapons to the shaolin martial arts and not to any particular style. Conversly, most styles did not originally have any weapons and adopted weapons into their style, i.e., Tai Chi Praying Mantis really only had one weapon, the 9 ring saber. All other weapons in the system are borrowed from another system. Same can be said about Eagle Claw, Ts’ai Li Fut and Seven Star PM.
However, this is not to say weapons did not exist before Shaolin. Shaolin borrowed many weapons and developed them to another level. The only real weapon that Shaolin developed to its potential is the staff as proven in the case where the 13 monks of Shaolin came to the aid of Emperor Tai Tsuang in defeating Wang Shih Ching’s army at Lo Yang in the Tang Dynasty.
Later during the Tang Dynasty, three famous generals brought weapons to Shaolin temple in Honan. Cheng Yao Chin brouht the lance axes, Lo Cheng brought the Plum Blossom Spear and Kao Huai Te brought the Black Tiger Hammers. They taught the monks these weapons and many of the techniques were adopted into other weapons.
Therefore in one sense, there was a Plum Blossom Spear from Shaolin but not necessary part of Lo Han and not necessary the same one that exist today.
Buddhapalm,
Sorry but it is getting late and I’ll have to get back to you later on your questions.
some more answers
Buddhapalm,
I do not know the exact location of the National Physical Association. Location that I have is Chuan Fu Tung Road in Chuan Hsin Tung Street in the Big Buddha Monastery but it does not state what city or province.
As far as the names of the NSL LH sets, they were just numbered as 1,2,3 …etc. However, after WW2, when Hwang Hsiao Hsia returned to his school, he taught 10 sets which everyone automatically referred to NSL LH. The sets were called Training Hand set, Training Step Set, Descending Dragon, Humble Tiger, Panther Fist, Attacking Elephant, Graceful Lion, etc. During his 8 years away from his school he met many different masters and learned their style. As a result, he then composed these ten sets which composed the best techniques which is a composite of different styles.
I do not know anyone who learned or currently practices the monk spade from SYF. There are no videos on NSL LH that I’m aware exist. However there is written documentation with photos on NSL LH Sparring set called Nian Shou Chuan. There are actually two books, one in Chinese ( Shao lin Chuan, 1985, for $10.95) and the other is in both English and Chinese ( Shaolin Kungfu by Li Ying Jie, 1988, Wan Li Book Co, LTD. for $9.95.) Both books are at East Wind Book store in SF. The first book ( 6 x 8 inches- red cover) contains three sets; China’s Best of South/North Shaolin that was composed by one of SYF’s disciple, Husang Hon Sheng; NSL LH sparring set (Nian Shou Chuan); and Flying Swallow of NSL or Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist) which is part of the standard 10 Ching Wu sets. The second book (7 x 10 inches) contains only NSL LH sparring set, Nian Shou Chuan.
Ma Ching Fung opened his own school in HK and called it Ching Fung Martial Arts Association. I do not believe nor did I read any reference that he taught at KMT. However he did teach part time or as a guest instructor from time to time at Ching Wu in HK.
I do not know the Monk spade but the techniques for your spear set contains the same opening as the Plum blossom spear that I know.
National Physical Association
Thanks NorthernShaolin.
I researched Big Buddha Monastery/Temple and found this:
"In the late 1760s, Hung Hei Kwun was a tea merchant. On a business trip to Kwantung Province, he had a dispute with some Manchu Nobles. In anger, he abandoned his tea business and asked to be admitted to the Fujian Shaolin Temple. Monk Sam Tak and Abbot Chi Zin (also called Gee Shimn Sien See), who was from the northern temple, instructed him and after only six years was considered the best layman follower there (among about 100 or so there). The Heaven and Earth Society learned his Hung Gar style in secret at Shaolin and used it to combat Manchu guards. But, around 1803, the Ching sent troops to Fujian and destroyed this temple also, forcing many to flee. Some say about 1,000 monks were killed and about 30 escaped and scattered further south. Among these were Abbot Chi Zin, Monks Sam Tak, Hung Hei Kwun, Choi Hin Fook, and Tze Sai Fook.
Hung Hei Kwun fled to Kwantung Province and eventually began
secretly teaching martial arts at the Big Buddha Temple in Kwantung."
Do you think this same Big Buddha Temple could be the one where Sun Yu Fungs student “Hwang Hsiao Hsia” was teaching (after Hung Hei Kwun of course)?
Also the surname “Hsia”, is that the same as Dea or Tse in Cantonese ?
Regarding “Ching Fung Martial Arts Association”, is that meaning Clear Wind or Sword Wind ?
You said about Sun Yu Fung - “In his late years (at 63 years old), he liked to perform Eight Drunken Fairies Immortal fist set.”
Do you know what this set looks like ? does it use two fingers, like the Tai Chi Sword hand ?
Have you ever heard of the master Leung Tim Chu (Leung Tien Shu) and his grandson in San Francisco, Wong Tim Yuen (80 years old ?)?
Rgarding the photo of Sun Yu Fung, it would be great to have a copy.
Thanks again NorthernShaolin, you have opened up many doors in my research and I appreciate your patience in answering my questions.
Shaolin Kung Fu Book - Li Ying Jie
NorthernShaolin,
I bought the book you recommended “Shaolin Kung Fu” by Li Ying Jie. Its very interesting. The Sifus demonstrating the form were Wong Kin Fung (any relation to Ma Kin Fung ? )and Cheng Ho Wah. Many of the moves in the book are similar to my system.
Do you know where these teachers are located or any way to contact them ?
The other book I could not find.
Thanks
Some answers
Buddhapalm,
I do not know if it is the same buddha temple.
Hisa is not the same as Dea. Dea is a family surname.
The school Ching Fung is named after Ma Ching Fung. Yes, it translates to Sword Wind.
I’ve only seen the set in book form, never live.
Wong Tim Yuen! Is he the same Sifu of Southern Shao lin who had a school on Sacramento street in SF?
I ‘ll try and get you a copy of SYF’s picture.
I believ the two men in the book are students of Hsaung Sifu in Hong Kong.
I went to Eastwing today, Friday 7/6/01 and there is one copy left. You must have missed it. It is in the Chinese Bookstore in the basement, not the store on the 2nd floor. This book has a picture of SYF. Go for it!!
Wong Tim Yuen
Yes that’s the Southern Shaolin Sifu. I didn’t know where he taught though. Do you know what kind of Southern Shaolin he taught ? Do you know of any of his students ?
Sherman told me that he had heard my Sigung Dea had learned 2 handsets from him. That was news to me, but I just want to follow the lead.
Thanks for checking on the book for me. I will go today and get it. You said the two students in the other book were students of Hsaung Sifu. Was he related to Sun Yu Fung.
If you have a photo of Sun Yu Fung, I would be most endebted.
Thanks again NorthernShaolin, your assistance has been imeasurable !
P.S dont forget to let me know about the spear,
and I may be able to get “New China Wu Shu” book from Beijing, I will know in a week.
NorthernShaolin
Do you have any information on Sung Yi Shan
He taught NSL in Hong Kong during the 30’s.
I think his son Sung Bai Yuan taught NSL in HK and was a brother or uncle of Ho Chang Hai.
r.