I have been training in shaolin lately and the few applications I have gotten from my teacher in regards to grabs and escapes from holds and locks, invole elbows. First involves freeing yourself,then returning with an elbow,and often followed by a groin strike.
Seems like an interesting theory. Anyone have any experience with these applications. Or real life experience using them?
Don’t ever rely on groin strikes as a finisher. I’ve hit people square in the nads and had them keep coming and been on the other end of the same. Also as far as self defense goes unless you’re on fear of your life you don’t want to be hitting this area.
Honestly the best defense against most grabs is throws or joint locks after an initial strike to the face.
i have done martial arts for almost 30 years, also have kicked people in the groin before,in real fights.i am not asking about how to defend myself.but about the shaolin way of using elbows against grappling.
Using them in what way in grappling?
Against standing grabs? Shoots to the legs? Reaps? For striking on the ground?
Against the first, bad idea. It rarely, if ever, works and it rarely, if ever, is taught properly.
Against the second, bad idea. It sometimes works but not consistently because the only viable targets are small and fast moving.
For use as the third, good idea. The elbows are very damaging and fairly easy to pull of on the ground.
bacon do you study shaolin kung fu?
I’m practicing wing chun and have practiced mma, aikido, muay Thai/kickboxing, and bjj.
ok well this thread is about shaolin elbows and their grappling application. none of the stuff you are talking about
Grappling is grappling is grappling. The three things I posted hold true no matter which art you do. But again I ask… which part of grappling?
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195253]Don’t ever rely on groin strikes as a finisher.[/QUOTE]
In My experience with Shaolin they are rarely used as a finisher but as an opener.
Even if it doesn’t hurt someone it will most likely cause them to at least slightly drop their guard, either to block it or from the reaction of being hit and collapsing slightly. This way it brings the head into range. So it is often used to open the head to a strike.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1195272]ok well this thread is about shaolin elbows and their grappling application. none of the stuff you are talking about[/QUOTE]
When you say grappling…? (Qin na, wrestling, on the floor grappling?)
There are several sub systems which are more than individual moves in Shaolin e.g: yun ding, dan bian, lian huan zhou.. etc.
Lian Huan Zhou, or Pan Zhou (continuous elbow, coiling elbow) Contains a whole system of coiling your elbows around the opponents arms to perfrom Qin na, but also to strike. Often one hand is in contact with the opponent then the elbow folds over and strikes using the contact a s a pivot. There are many permutations of this. It is generally used when you have semi control of one of the opponents arms, or when you are close together in a loose clinch.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1195241]…escapes from holds and locks, invole elbows. First involves freeing yourself,then returning with an elbow,and often followed by a groin strike.
…like an interesting theory?[/QUOTE]
such strict prescriptions as to strictly use elbows after escaping and then so and so are more appropriate for self-defense classes not for a comprehensive martial art. in SongShan Shaolin kung fu it totally depends on the situation.
in confirmation of the validity of your sifu’s prescription, the natural choice is that if you’ve escaped from the opponent’s grasp you can use short-range hittings while you’re still close to the opponent (like the elbow action you said), and then more serious strikes (like to the groin, as you said) if possible.
strategy against locks and holds
in Chinese martial arts the general strategy against locks and holds is that “Do not resist, but follow!” this is the Yin type of forcing. in general, in the case of locks and holds, resisting (Yang side of forcing) makes you more involved and suffer more from the locks. any Qinna technique has at least several counterattacks, most of which involve–not resisting but–following the direction of opponent’s forcing, then softly deflecting the force direction to the direction that gives you an advantage point. then you can do a counterattack Qinna or any other technique appropriate to that situation.
It’s all about elbows with my Shaolin instructor Yan Fei
We conclude every class with elbow drills. I wrote an article on it with him in our 2012 Shaolin Special - Ten Hands or One Elbow
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1195276]When you say grappling…? (Qin na, wrestling, on the floor grappling?)
i mean the stand up exscapes from wrist grabs,bear hugs collar grabs,the stuff you see in the forms.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1195335]We conclude every class with elbow drills. I wrote an article on it with him in our 2012 Shaolin Special - Ten Hands or One Elbow[/QUOTE]
o cool thanks gene,i will read it now
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1195512]
i mean the stand up exscapes from wrist grabs,bear hugs collar grabs,the stuff you see in the forms.[/QUOTE]
There a plenty of better escapes. The only time you really have to deal with wrist grabs are if you’re a woman or carrying a weapon and they’re trying to grab your arm before you draw. Japanese jujitsu has a whole slew of techniques for each of these which have been used to great effect for a long time. Look at the judo, pre war aikido, and classical jujitsu stuff. The common elements will be strike to off balance or distract, off balance, lock/throw.
If you really want to understand why I’m saying this get someone who is at least a foot and a half taller than you and at least 80 pounds heavier. When they’re not doing a static grab but using a grab to control you for a strike or throw you’ll understand why.
dude i already mentioned this discussion is about shaolin theory. besides i already have a black belt in traditional japanese jujitsu,and know a whole **** load of ways to get out of bear hugs, wrist locks and collar grabs. trying to discuss the shaolin way of doing things
If you have a BB in JJJ as you claim then you know there are good reasons not to do the things you’re describing.
@Wiz
Bacon is the troll of the Shaolin forum. He once criticized a video of a form demonstration as completely useless in combat, although he has never done a martial art with forms to even have a clue, except for the WC he’s doing now, but he’s probably not halfway through Siu-nihm-tau, or he’d know things aren’t applied as they appear in the form, and you can’t understand all that’s going on in an action just by looking at it, especially if you don’t even practice that style. So just ignore him in the Shaolin section.
i have a black belt in bujinkan budo taijutsu, taijutsu is basically traditional jujutsu. yeah this guy is a troll or just a loser with nothing better to do then put his two cents in when he never even studied the style that is being descussed