Shaolin-Do Techniques - no history arguments

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

OK, a lot of SD people like to say that as their stuff works, who cares about the history. Fair enough, let’s critique some techniques.

This is from Mullin’s board:

I know that I personally am dominently a striker, probably because I’ve been taught so. I know we have some grappling in later forms, and chin na is always good when you need it. But, what’s the most effective way to fight off a grappler for know.

Just curious, I got to thinking about it when I saw a guy at school today with a wrestling team shirt on and it made me wonder.

Now, there were a lot of suggestions, including some very good ones about learning to sprawl, etc. But there was also this:

Bite an artery out. They will let go. If a ball sack presents itself bite that off as well. (Just gargle a gallon of mouthwash afterwards) Any of the pressure point areas can be bit out as well.

and, from the same person a couple of posts later

I didn’t mean hitting pressure points, I meant biting them out. I didn’t mean biting, I meant biting out. Grabbing the biggest hunk of flesh in your mouth and doing your best to totally rip it from the body. If an eye exposes itself, stick your thumb into it down to the knuckle.

Note: I am speaking of extreem self defense situations … not your normal school yard fight, since we have some younger readers here.

Someone then responded with:

don’t expect biting and gauging(sp) to help you…your arm will be broken long before you can do either.

to which the reply was:

I guarantee you that I would get my bite in before this happened and/or have blinded the guy. But even if I couldn’t … I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken.

The person then simply said:

You’re a fool then, but that’s really your problem, not mine.

To which the biter replied:

My advice was sound and is the same advice my teacher gives. So in calling me a fool for my comments you were in a way saying the same about him. This grappeling fad is one of the most useless bunch of garabage I have seen in the MA community. That stuff is totally useless in a fight with more than 1 attacker. It is useless in situations where you don’t have the floor space to waller around in. About the only place it is effective is in a UFC fighting ring. Because a) You have 1 attacker, b) You have a big open area to lay around and grope each other (No cars in the way nor tables or other people) and c) biting and eye gouges are not allowed.

Have I actually bit out a pressure point? No I have not. Do I know which ones to bite out? You’re darn tootin.

<snip>

I will take my teacher’s or any of our other master’s 30+ years experience over your limited experience.

So this is the crux of the issue.

I’ve tried to avoid naming any names so that we can just discuss what is being taught within SD. This guy talks bout his teacher and is also a teacher himself.

Off you go, all.

2

In my humble opinion, you’re a waste of good cyber space.

3

Thanks.

Anyone want to discuss the topic?

4

Whats’ there to discuss??

Same rant and discussion as on this Board, in short:

Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring did I mention boring already.
:wink:

5

Well, there’s a lot of SD debate at the moment and a lot of argument about their history and lienage claims. SD practitioners keep saying to look at their techs not their history and discuss that.

So that’s exactly what I’m offering here.

If you think it’s boring, bugger off and read something else.

6

Originally posted by Serpent
Well, there’s a lot of SD debate at the moment and a lot of argument about their history and lienage claims. SD practitioners keep saying to look at their techs not their history and discuss that.

Claims are claims every style has some dubious claims.


So that’s exactly what I’m offering here.

All I saw over at the Mullins forum was some stupid bickering and the same arguments I here and on other boards
between a few TMA & MMA guys.

It’s just talk(Mouth-fu) and ego’s being aired.


If you think it’s boring, bugger off and read something else.

Naah, I will pop my head in from time to time to see who got something worthwhile to say.

7

OK, so discuss. You agree with the biter? You think this is valid techniques for teachers and their teachers to advocate?

Or do you agree with the guy that thinks it’s completely foolish?

Or do you have naother opinion all together?

Or are you just posting for the sake of it?

8

Originally posted by Serpent
OK, so discuss. You agree with the biter? You think this is valid techniques for teachers and their teachers to advocate?

Depends on what you train for and who you are up against.
For the ring I would say NO.


Or do you agree with the guy that thinks it’s completely foolish?

I also don’t fully agree with him.

There is nothing that is 100% useless if used at the right time and under the right circumstances.

In a fight situation there are no absolutes, one tech(bite) might not work on one opponent but will get a result on the next.


Or are you just posting for the sake of it?

Naah, I don’t have either an agenda or a post-count that I worry about.

9

I view biting along with eye gouges and pressure point strikes. Yes, it is a valid technique and it can work, but it is fairly low percentage. Add to that the fact that the attacking weapon is part of your head, and the issues surrounding blood etc it really makes it an attack of last resort.

As for biting pressure points - good luck :wink:

10

Originally posted by joedoe
[B]I view biting along with eye gouges and pressure point strikes. Yes, it is a valid technique and it can work, but it is fairly low percentage. Add to that the fact that the attacking weapon is part of your head, and the issues surrounding blood etc it really makes it an attack of last resort.

As for biting pressure points - good luck :wink: [/B]

Exactly what I was thinking. And this extremely low percentage tech is being stated as the main defence against grappling in a real self defence situation.

And what about this bit?

I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken

11

there are deseases that travel by blood, if its a life or death thing maybe biting is your Only option , but i wouldnt recommend it, and there are plenty more. no one needs to train a martial art in order to learn how to bite , and eye gouging is not so much a skill as it is basically within the realm of any person under a stressful circumstance to think of.
that being said …you’re not the only person who can bite , or eye gouge, why would you attempt this against a wrestler of all people…someone who has trained in joint manipulation and submission? has this person ever attempted to bite an artery or tear skin off living flesh before? is it as easy as it sounds? how do you know you won’t end up giving your attacker a hickey?
just based on the blood transmission thing alone biting is a stupid idea..its risky enough trading blows.
I dunno maybe its just me but I find those comments odd.
I think I see what you’re trying to do serp. I hope you get the type of responses you are looking for.

12

“I am still left with over 9 weapons to use, after my arm has been broken”
I’m under the impression that a broken arm might be a bit painful, and restricting of movement.

13

Amazing Serpent … you actually had a mature moment there friend, by not naming the source of those comments. Let’s see how long this lasts. Those comments were mine. I have read the arguments on that board and here in various threads about biting but I stand by my comments. Of course I am not talking about tactics to be used in the ring, I hardly ever talk about what can be used in a ring.

  I have a teacher that specializes in monkey, and as you know ... monkeys tend to bite a lot. 

I'm not really worried about diseases that flow in the blood in a life or death situation.  My main goal is to incapacitate my attacker.

Ok this is boring. I’ll wait till tomorrow when this thread gets lively.

14

I saw these comments on the Mullins board a few days ago and tried to reply, but my email address has been banned(?).

Anyway, I think these comments smack of inexperience with proficient grappling. I mean come on, biting chunks out of people?

Meecer, please visit your local bjj, judo, or wrestling school and spend a few months sparring with them and learn why and how they do what they do. I can assure you that biting is probably not the best course of action against a skilled grappler and I think you will learn this as well.

More importantly than the usefulness of these types of “anti-grappling” techniques is the legal ramifications of using them in a typical fight.

I think we can all agree that the typical fight in our adult lives is most likely going to happen in a place with lots of people and lots of alcohol. Given that, most fights that occur are going to be same ol everyday scuffles, not life or death situations. If a drunk tackles you because he thinks you looked at his girl, will you gouge his eye or bite his jugular? If so and are successful, you’ll probably end up in prison or being sued.

We don’t live in the old west. If somebody attacks you first, you don’t necessarily have the right to maim him. Particularly if you have a MA background and he doesn’t. Our martial arts must be functional not only physically, but legally as well.

15

Given that, most fights that occur are going to be same ol everyday scuffles, not life or death situations. If a drunk tackles you because he thinks you looked at his girl, will you gouge his eye or bite his jugular?

If a drunk tackles me I seriously doubt he is going to break out some BJJ. I would only use my tactics if he was trying to break a limb or seriously hurt me.
Last fight I was in I was a little worried that I would have to use more force than I preferred because I had been in a head on collision with a drunk driver the week before. I got light headed just tilting my head down and knew I would probably fall from just one punch. Fortunately I was able to walk away from that situation with only minor force used. Had there not been other people in the vicinity I probably would have been more precautious and used more force. Point is, all of us should only use the force needed in a situation.

Your email address was banned? It may be because you are using a ‘free’ email service. You have to use something that you pay for, so you can be tracked.

edit: I hope my above account didn’t come off c ocky or anything. I was just agreeing with the previous poster and making a point. I really don’t go out looking for fights in real life and have talked my way out a few. (Which I prefer to do) However when it comes to you guys, I’ll fight with you all day long. :smiley:

16

Tearing out an artery seems really unlikely to me. Have you tried, in sparring with a grappler, to even get the positions necessary to bite a major artery?

Now, I’ve got a picture in my head of adapting the knifefighting drill where you put lipstick or chalk on a practice knife to see where you cut the guy. Except in this case, you actually use the lipstick “normally” and see where you could’ve bitten the guy.

That image is going to haunt me.

Stuart B.

17

yeah and then your partner goes home to his wife and tries to explain why there’s lip stick and mouth prints all over him because of a “martial arts” drill.

18

Exactly :slight_smile:

19

Why use a bite??? surely a chi blast would be more effective, every good SD practioner knows how ineffective grappling really is against their leathal fighting methods!

20

how about a chi bite? OH SHNAP! I think I just coined the perfect name for a martial arts snack food!