Shaolin diet, vegetarianism and stuff

It’s possible that you just can’t do it genetically. I’m not a vegan zealot these days, so it’s possible it’s just not for you. In general, though, I think that’s rare.

Quick question though, since you’re concerned about jing and all the mystical mumbo jumbo, ever had your testosterone levels checked out? Mike Mahler is a vegan strength training “guru” and the guy is cut, he’s all about hormone optimization and building diets to assist with that as well as supplementing vitamins and minerals that assist.

[QUOTE=DangerousPerson;1130002]After 10 years vegan, and a few years before being vegetarian, I lacked overall energy and had kidney energy issues that weren’t being resolved with just chinese herbs. I was consistently active and had a good to excellent diet the whole time I was vegan. I’ve come to believe there are other factors.[/QUOTE]

It’s not for everybody.

indeed

[QUOTE=wenshu;1130785]It’s not for everybody.[/QUOTE]
It’s only for real Shaolin. :stuck_out_tongue:

Vegetarianism and Kung Fu

Is any one around here a vegemuhtarian? If so, I’m very interested in your opinions, diet choices and experiences. Also, why vegi?
So much gung fu comes from Siu Lum which practices vegetarian diet. Many of the siu lum adepts that fled to the west have admited falling off the vegi-wagon, some have expressed regret.
Any imput for those of us boxers who will punch a face but not eat one?
I originally posted this in the wing chun forum but suppose this is more appropriate. Just whether or not any one will see it.

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1165651]Is any one around here a vegemuhtarian? If so, I’m very interested in your opinions, diet choices and experiences. Also, why vegi?
So much gung fu comes from Siu Lum which practices vegetarian diet. Many of the siu lum adepts that fled to the west have admited falling off the vegi-wagon, some have expressed regret.
Any imput for those of us boxers who will punch a face but not eat one?
I originally posted this in the wing chun forum but suppose this is more appropriate. Just whether or not any one will see it.[/QUOTE]

Even the Shaolin understood that eating meat is important to developing proper strength and health. So the Shaolin fighters were permitted to eat meat.

I wouldn’t waste my time with a vegetarian diet if your sole purpose is to help your fighting skills.

Hi Happy Tiger,

Not only are nearly all Chinese monks vegetarian, but many refrain from any animal products such as Egg or Milk.

I started my reduction of meat consumption quite a time before I found my way into buddhist practice- for health reasons.

If you want to build muscle or “be strong”- eating meat is not directly related at all (with the exception you may be eating injected horomone and growing because of it?).

As far as training gong fu is concerned, buddhist practice may be concerned primarily health cultivation and self understanding. Part of health cultivation means longevity with quality of life- the focus being quality.

If you want more information on Clinical research done I’d suggest Dr. Greger’s website that offers literally 100’s of free videos on all of the planets most recent/updated and respected clinical nutrition research.

http://nutritionfacts.org/

If you click “Most Watched” or even just scroll through, you’ll find plenty about meat consumption, and many more about animal product consumption (milk, egg, etc) and to what extent eating animal products reduces quality and quantity of your life!

Just found some quick links to share

Found some quick links to share on the topics to make it quicker to find animal consumption related videos:

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/animal-products/

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/animal-protein/

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/meat/

Hope it helps you with your questions, Happy Tiger!

I’ve noted huge improvement in general feeling and a feeling of lightness when not consuming meat. I noticed this shortly after I had started my transition into vegetarian diet couples years back- after a month or so of not eating meat and went back to eating meat- I can only describe the feeling that my bloodstream felt heavy/sluggish!

Interesting anecdotal evidence, I have some anecdotal evidence of my own from when I ate vegetarian in the past:

I was hungry all the time, I had to eat almost every two hours and I could never get enough to eat to supply my energy needs. It did not make me feel any more energetic then when eating meat. Only hungry all the time.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165736]I could never get enough to eat to supply my energy needs.[/QUOTE]

I can’t make sense of this unless you were eating poorly, which removing meat from your diet would not have helped. Adding meat back to your diet would not give you more energy as it is primarily proteins you are extracting from it- which are inefficient to convert to carbohydrates.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165736]It did not make me feel any more energetic then when eating meat. Only hungry all the time.[/QUOTE]

Interesting- considering the majority of carbohydrates we get come from plant sources. As far as feeling hungry, I’ve heard many people say protein gives them a satisfied full feeling. - I eat plenty of nuts which are high energy good protein. Also flax seed, hemp seeds are easy to add to any dish for a high quality protein assortment.

If you were always hungry I’d suggest you didn’t eat enough. Many of the western “raw” (unboiled/steamed) leaf vegetables fill up a lot of stomach room and don’t feel full at all. I eat mostly ‘chinese’ leaf style vegetables for my greens and after boiling they nearly half or third in volume and you can fit a huge amount more :wink: Also cook in some tofu or soy product/nuts and should get a better full feeling, or add a slight of olive oil after cooked.

No…

I am pretty well informed on what constitutes a well balanced diet!

Nuts didn’t help me either. I am just a natural meat eater is all.

Also, I am not a fan of eating. I would rather eat once or twice a day. I don’t have the patience to fix and eat all the food it takes to be a vegetarian!

Strict vegetarian for 3+ years, training for almost twice that.

My own experience confirms the quantity issue Mr. Brown related. I measure meals in how many grocery bags of food I eat. Seriously, I eat like a morbidly obese person. I love to eat so I have no problem with it. As for energy and concerns about protein I have no problems at 6’2" 190# and consistent, linear increases in the adaptive physical demands of my training. If anything I should cut weight.

One of the many benefits of a vegetarian diet aside from it’s immediate health benefits is that it forces you to closely examine what you eat and naturally eliminates certain easy unhealthy choices (fast food, too much red meat, overly processed foods etc). This is especially helpful right after training when not only are you starving but you have no willpower and that double bacon doughnut burger looks like a reasonable recovery option.

As for Shaolin, Chinese Buddhists take vegetarianism very seriously; you can’t take the Bodhisattva precepts if you consume meat. Secular warriors certainly could consume whatever they want but anything beyond that is a myth.

Except that it is well established that the Shaolin fighters DID eat meat!

And other Buddhist fighters have eaten meat as well. There are a number of treatises on the subject!

bringing this back out of interest in mood and relative to discussion

[QUOTE=LFJ;1122240]
Eating meat creates greed, anger, and desire? Are there any studies that prove this to be true?[/QUOTE]

Because there are always far too many variables involved to ever prove this outright, we have some clininal research that says volumes about mood irregularity, depression/negativity, and mental health issues associated with meat consumption.

http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/plant-based-diet-mood/
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/improving-mood-through-diet/

What kind of secondary or tertiary conclusions that can be made from this would be speculative for the most part.. Although I’d easily say most vegetarians and vegans I know are very stable in mood relative to meat eaters I know. Of course these findings are not definitive as well, although they fully reflect my own experience and that of others I’ve heard from.

Even if science could prove something as immensely specific as ‘eating meat SPECIFICALLY creates greed, anger, and desire’ (although it would first require semantic debate over the meaning of the words, what they practically mean, etc etc) it would likely be glossed over by the mainstay western health publicity, as has been most of the plant-based animal product lifestyle-eating findings.

If reducing mental health/heart/body complications and disease isn’t showing you much improved progress/results in your martial practice/cultivation (buddhist or otherwise), it’s probably factors other than diet as cause!

It is much more likely that those who are drawn to be vegetarians have specific characteristics to begin with, because vegetarianism itself is associated with certain religious traditions, thus drawing people inclined to those traditions to vegetarianism, myself, and I am sure others, excluded.

It is ridiculous to suppose that meat eaters are inherently more greedy, angry and desirous. The Roman legions were vegetarian for god’s sake, as well as most ancient armies, simply because it is cheaper to feed large groups of people with grains than meat!

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165766]It is much more likely that those who are drawn to be vegetarians have specific characteristics to begin with [/QUOTE]
Not really, in fact not at all. In fact this plays a very minor factor if any. If we were talking about one or even a handful of studies- it may be a small issue (although most control for such things). When you are talking about the sheer amount of data available, you’ll see this is just an uneducated statement.

Once you see the volume of data that has been amassed in clinical trials about non-meat eaters you will not be surprised from what this says about meat eating and mood- in fact there are other correlative effects between the very act of Having illnesses/diseases and Having mood irregularities/depression. It is all related in terms of meat eating- higher chances of so many disorders and illnesses that may indirectly lead to mood irregularity/mental issues and these studies I’ve included which more likely show a direct link.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165766]It is ridiculous to suppose that meat eaters are inherently more greedy, angry and desirous.[/QUOTE]
Angry is not much of a stretch when you consider the hormone influence of most meats consumed. - In any case it is a stretch to say it and unfounded in hard science as of now, but not ridiculous to say at all.

As far as your vegetarian trials- it is also common for a body to reject vegetarian vegan diet if you do not ease into it (I took about 2 years vegetarian to ease and 3 years vegan). Otherwise you may have dramatic hormone and digestive changes that you might not be able to reconcile even in several months.- I also experienced the “problems” that you mentioned in my initial transition. Not feeling full or energetic. It takes time to adjust to not having meat- maybe even a year or more.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165766]I don’t have the patience to fix and eat all the food it takes to be a vegetarian![/QUOTE]
Patience in preparing food is gong fu. You are likely weighing on short term gains, my friend! Most americans also think this way about preparing food, and this is one reason we have the world’s highest incidence of a wide number of health disorders/illnesses.

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165760]Except that it is well established that the Shaolin fighters DID eat meat![/QUOTE]

Where?

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1165760]And other Buddhist fighters have eaten meat as well. There are a number of treatises on the subject![/QUOTE]

What treatises?

[QUOTE=wenshu;1165777]Where?

What treatises?[/QUOTE]

Normally I would encourage people to do their own research, but I am in the mood to be a bit helpful tonight so here are a few items to peruse:

[URL=“http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521”]Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations?
by Dr. Meir Shahar

As to Buddhist dietary laws, they are kept by the first type of Shaolin-residing clerics only. Meat is not served in today’s Shaolin Temple, and Buddhist monks who live inside the monastery adhere to a vegetarian diet. By contrast, most other “Shaolin monks” are openly carnivorous. It is not surprising, perhaps, that the monastery’s “performing monks” consume meat, just as lay disciples do. It is striking, though, that ordained martial-monks do so as well. Most of those fighting monks who have left the monastery to open private schools do eat meat. These tough martial artists continue to present themselves as monks, donning Buddhist uniforms, all the while consuming animal flesh. Indeed they give the impression that carnivorousness is an integral element of the martial monk’s (wuseng) ethos. When interviewed about their dietary habits, they explain that Shaolin fighting monks have always consumed meat…

…Beginning in the Tang Period and all through the twentieth century, fiction and drama associated fighting monks with the consumption of animal flesh. In novels, short stories, plays and, more recently, movies, martial monks are invariably depicted as meat gobblers. Field work conducted at the Shaolin Temple and its vicinity corroborates the testimony of fiction, revealing that monks who have left the monastery to pursue a martial career do eat meat, all the while presenting themselves as Buddhist clerics and donning monastic robes. Finally, government documents and monastic correspondence - from the Ming and Qing periods alike - attest that some Shaolin - or Shaolin-affiliated - monks transgressed Buddhist dietary regulations. We may conclude, therefore, that throughout most - if not all - of Shaolin’s history carnivorousness has been closely related to the fighting monk’s ethos.

We may note in conclusion that, whether they have received martial training or not, wandering monks have often transgressed monastic regulations. Chinese Buddhist history has known a special type of cleric who occupies the fringes of the monastic community, leading an itinerant lifestyle. Often venerated by the laity as miracle workers, such wandering monks engaged in healing, fortune- telling, and the like. Their extraordinary powers were believed to be intimately related to extraordinary behavior, for which reason perhaps they often breached monastic law, especially the dietary regulations forbidding meat and wine. Therefore, such folk thaumaturges were sometimes referred to as “crazy monks” (dian seng), “mad monks” (feng heshang) or “wild monks” (ye heshang). Beginning in the early medieval period, their hagiographies had been included in such collections as Huijiao’s (497-554) BIOGRAPHIES OF EMINENT MONKS (Gaoseng zhuan), and they continued to figure in Chinese religious life all through the modern period, when they were referred to as “meat and wine monks” (jiurou heshang). One of the most famous of these eccentric saints is the Song-period Daoji (?-1209), also known as Crazy Ji (Jidian), who has been celebrated posthumously in an enormous body of fiction and drama, becoming one of the most beloved deities in the pantheon of Chinese popular religion.

Buddhism and Vegetarianism

Are all Buddhists vegetarians?

No. The First Precept admonishes us to refrain from killing, but meat eating is not regarded as an instance of killing, and it is not forbidden in the scriptures. (We are speaking here mainly of the Pali scriptures. Some of the Mahayana scriptures, notably the Lankavatara Sutra, take a strong position in favor of vegetarianism. Also see Note below)

As recorded in the Pali scriptures, the Buddha did not prohibit consumption of meat, even by monks. In fact, he explicitly rejected a suggestion from Devadatta to do so. In modern Theravada societies, a bhikkhu who adheres to vegetarianism to impress others with his superior spirituality may be committing an infringement of the monastic rules.

On the other hand, the Buddha categorically prohibited consumption of the flesh of any animal that was “seen, heard or suspected” to have been killed specifically for the benefit of monks (Jivaka Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 55). This rule technically applies only to monastics, but it can be used as a reasonable guide by devout lay people.

To understand this “middle path” approach to meat-eating, we have to remember that there were no “Buddhists” in Shakyamuni’s time. There were only mendicants of various kinds (including the Buddha’s disciples), plus lay people who gave them alms out of respect without necessarily worrying about the brand name of the teachings.

If meat was what a householder chose to offer, it was to be accepted without discrimination or aversion. To reject such an offering would be an offense against hospitality and would deprive the householder of an opportunity to gain merit – and it could not benefit the animal, because it was already dead. Even the Jains may have had a similar outlook during the same period of history, despite the strict doctrine of ahimsa.

Vegetarianism could not become a source of serious controversy in the bhikkhu sangha until the rise of fixed-abode monastic communities in which the monks did not practice daily alms-round. Any meat provided to such a community by lay people would almost certainly have been killed specifically for the monks. That may be one reason for the difference in Mahayana and Theravada views on meat eating – the development of monastic communities of this type occurred principally within Mahayana.

The issue of meat eating raises difficult ethical questions. Isn’t the meat in a supermarket or restaurant killed “for” us? Doesn’t meat eating entail killing by proxy?

Few of us are in a position to judge meat eaters or anyone else for “killing by proxy.” Being part of the world economy entails “killing by proxy” in every act of consumption. The electricity that runs our computers comes from facilities that harm the environment. Books of Buddhist scriptures are printed on paper produced by an industry that destroys wildlife habitat. Worms, insects, rodents and other animals are routinely killed en masse in the course of producing the staples of a vegetarian diet. Welcome to samsara. It is impossible for most of us to free ourselves from this web; we can only strive to be mindful of entanglement in it. One way to do so is to reflect on how the suffering and death of sentient beings contributes to our comfort. This may help us to be less inclined to consume out of mere greed.

All of that having been said, it cannot be denied that the economic machine which produces meat also creates fear and suffering for a large number of animals. It is useful to bear this in mind even if one consumes meat, to resist developing a habit of callousness. Many Buddhists (especially Mahayanists) practice vegetarianism as a means of cultivating compassion.

The Jivaka Sutta hints that one could also make a good case for vegetarianism starting from any of the other brahmaviharas (loving-kindness, sympathetic joy, equanimity). Interestingly, it is loving-kindness rather than compassion that is mentioned first in the Jivaka Sutta.

If you are considering trying out vegetarianism for the first time, we suggest discussing it with someone who has experience. There are a few issues that ought to be considered regarding balanced diet, etc.

Note (by Binh Anson): The Lankavatara Sutra, although recorded the Buddha’s teaching in Lanka (Sri Lanka), is essentially a product of later Mahayana development. According to H. Nakamura (Indian Buddhism, 1987), there are several versions of this sutra, one fairly different in content from the other. Most scholars concluded that this sutra was likely compiled in 350-400 CE. In addition, according the the popular Zen master D.T. Suzuki (The Lankavatara Sutra - A Mahayana Text, 1931), the chapter dealing with meat eating was indeed added much later in subsequent versions. He also agreed that this sutra was not the authentic words by the Buddha, but was compiled much later by unknown authors following Mahayana’s philosophy.

  1. From Ven. S. Dhammika (Australian BuddhaNet):

Vegetarianism

There are differences of opinion between Buddhists on this issue so we will attempt to present the arguments of those who believe that vegetarianism is necessary for Buddhists and those who do not.

Vegetarianism was not a part of the early Buddhist tradition and[SIZE=“4”] the Buddha himself was not a vegetarian. [/SIZE]The Buddha got his food either by going on alms rounds or by being invited to the houses of his supporters and in both cases he ate what he was given. Before his enlightenment he had experimented with various diets including a meatless diet, but he eventually abandoned them believing that they did not contribute to spiritual development.

The Nipata Sutta underlines this point when it says that it is immorality that makes one impure (morally and spiritually), not the eating of meat. The Buddha is often described as eating meat, he recommended meat broth as a cure for certain types of illness and advised monks for practical reasons, to avoid certain types of meat, implying that other types were quite acceptable.

However, Buddhists gradually came to feel uncomfortable about meat eating. In 257 BC King Asoka said that in contrast to before, only two pea****s and a deer were killed to provide food in the royal kitchens and that in time even this would be stopped. By the beginning of the Christian era meat eating had become unacceptable, particularly amongst the followers of the Mahayana although the polemics against it in works like the Lankavatara Sutra indicates that it was still widespread or a least a point of controversy (see footnote in the previous section). Tantric text dating from the 7th and 8th centuries onward, frequently recommend both drinking alcohol and eating meat and both are considered fit to offer to gods. This was probably as much an expression of the freedom from convention which Tantra taught as it was a protest against Mahayanists to whom practices like abstaining from drink and meat had become a substitute for genuine spiritual change.

Today it is often said that Mahayanists are vegetarian and Theravadins are not. However the situation is a little more complex than that. Generally Theravadins have no dietary restrictions although it is not uncommon to find monks and lay people in Sri Lanka who are strict vegetarians. Others abstain from meat while eating fish. Chinese and Vietnamese monks and nuns are strictly vegetarian and the lay community try to follow their example although many do not. Amongst Tibetans and Japanese Buddhists, vegetarianism is rare.

Buddhists who insist on vegetarianism have a simple and compelling argument to support their case. Eating meat encourages an industry that causes cruelty and death to millions of animals and a truly compassionate person would wish to mitigate all this suffering. By refusing to eat meat one can do just that.

Those who believe that vegetarianism is not necessary for Buddhists have equally compelling although more complex arguments to support their view: (1) If the Buddha had felt that a meatless diet was in accordance with the Precepts he would have said so and in the Pali Tipitaka at least, he did not. (2) Unless one actually kills an animal oneself (which seldom happens today) by eating meat one is not directly responsible for the animal’s death and in this sense the non- vegetarian is no different from the vegetarian. The latter can only eat his vegetables because the farmer has ploughed his fields (thus killing many creatures) and sprayed the crop (again killing many creatures). (3) While the vegetarian will not eat meat he does use numerous other products that lead to animals being killed (soap, leather, serum, silk etc.) Why abstain from one while using the others? (4) Good qualities like understanding, patience, generosity and honesty and bad qualities like ignorance, pride, hypocrisy, jealousy and indifference do not depend on what one eats and therefore diet is not a significant factor in spiritual development.

Some will accept one point of view and some another. Each person has to make up his or her own mind.

REFERENCES:
(1) Ruegg, D.S. “Ahimsa and Vegetarianism in the History of Buddhism” in Buddhist Studies in Honour of Walpola Rahula. S. Balasooriya,(et.al) London, 1980;
(2) P. Kapleau, To Cherish All Life, London, 1982.

  1. From Samanera Kumara Liew ( dhamma-list@quantrum.com.my, 06 June 1999)

    Is there something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian?

I’m aware there are some people whom are vegetarians here. Being somewhat health conscious myself, I’m almost one too. However, I can see that there are some seem to hold a view that I think they might like to reconsider – i.e. the view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian.

[B]As the suttas (discourses) clearly shows, the Buddha himself – with his great wisdom – did not ask his disciples, renunciate or lay, to be vegetarians. And so, you might like to reconsider that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian.

The Buddha himself was not a vegetarian. And so, you might like to reconsider that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian.[/B]

Some may argue that somewhere along the line someone might have modified the suttas. It would seem quite unlikely, as the Suttas (of the Theravada tradition at least) are brought to the present by a very large group of monks, not individuals. As such they can check each other for deviations. One person can’t change anything without the agreement from others. For about 500 years the purity of the suttas was maintained by the oral tradition by large groups of chanting monks. When it eventually had to be put into writing in the first century due to wars, the monks who have such faith and respect for the Buddha would certainly have made much effort to ensure accuracy.

Assuming that despite all that, some people did attempt to modify the suttas, it wound have been quite impossible as there’s not even a single trace in the voluminous Tipitika (the Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma Pitakas) which even suggests that the Buddha advised on being vegetarians. And so, you might like to reconsider that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian.

Even if the above cannot convince you, try asking yourself this: “Why do I consider being a vegetarian to be spiritually wholesome?” You may say that “If I eat meat, I would be indirectly encouraging killing of animals”; or that, “If I eat meat, I would be indirectly a killer”; or that “If I’m a vegetarian, it would mean that less animals will be killed.”

Noble considerations, I must admit. But let’s examine this further to gain a better perspective. Try asking yourself this: “Where do my vegetables come from?” “From farms,” you might say. To prepare the soil for cultivation, wouldn’t it have to be tilled? And when the plants are grown, wouldn’t pesticides have to be sprayed? Wouldn’t all that kill lots of animals, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

Some may still continue to argue that one should get one’s vegetables from hydroponic farms. A good argument, I must admit. But let’s examine this further to gain a better perspective. Such farms use much water – for the sake of the plants, for the sake of washing things, for the sake of keeping the place clean, and others. Wouldn’t such use of water kill lots of animals too, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

And let’s consider the boxes and pipes in which such farming is so dependent upon, and also the materials to built the green houses. They need to be manufactured. And so indirectly factories are needed; and so lands need to be cleared. Wouldn’t all that kill lots of animals too, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

The machines and equipment needed by the factories too needs to be manufactured. And so indirectly more factories are needed; and so more lands need to be cleared. Wouldn’t all that kill lots of animals too, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

Let’s also further consider the supply of electricity, water, telecommunication services, and other infrastructures. Just consider all that needs to be done to supply those things. Wouldn’t all that kill lots of animals too, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

And consider all those transporting this and that here and there that goes about to set up the factories and the factories for the factories, the infrastructures for all those factories, so that materials can be supplied to them, so that the boxes and pipes and the material to build the green houses can be made for the hydroponic farms, and that they may be sent to the farms, so that hydroponic vegetables can be cultivated, so that you may buy and eat them. Wouldn’t all that kill even lots more animals, though they may be smaller and seem insignificant to humans? Don’t they suffer too?

Wouldn’t it then be proper to consider that “If I eat only vegetables I too would be indirectly encouraging killing of animals;” or that, “If I don’t eat meat, I would be indirectly a killer too;” or that “If don’t eat meat, it wouldn’t mean that less animals will be killed. And in fact perhaps more are killed.”

I could go on and on, but I should assume that you should get the message by now. And so, you might like to reconsider that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian. We must understand: We live in ‘samsara’; and it’s not called ‘samsara’ for no reason. In this world, there IS suffering. That the Buddha has declared. Its cause too has been declared. So has its end. And so has the way to the end of sufferings.

Having drawn such reasonable arguments, some may still insist on arguing further that eating meat may reduce our craving (tanha), and so there must be something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian. I’d ask: “Who says meat tastes better than vegetables?” Have you tasted meat without any additives before? A raw carrot would taste much better. I myself can easily have more craving for chocolates than meat. I’d say durian (a local fruit) tastes much better. So it would not be proper to say that eating meat may reduce our craving. Besides, having aversion over a neutral thing such as meat seems quite unnecessary and even obstructive to one’s spiritual progress. And so, you might like to reconsider that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian.

Consider what the Buddha said: “Action (kamma) is intention (cetana).” When we eat meat we do not think: “Oh, may they kill more animals so that I may have more meat to eat. Never mind if being have to suffer and die.” When we eat vegetables, fruits and other non-meat food, we do not think: “Oh, may they plant more of such food. Never mind if beings have to suffer and die.” When we eat, our intention is to eat.

However, we may try practicing a few things:

  • We may be moderate with our intake. Not indulge more than what we really need. That’s what the Buddha advised, and there is something spiritually wholesome about this; and not simply not eat meat.

  • We may choose to eat only “at the right time” (dawn to noon). This is encouraged even for lay people on certain days. That’s what the Buddha advised, and there is something spiritually wholesome about this; and not simply not eat meat.

  • When we eat we may eat mindfully, chew mindfully, taste mindfully and swallow mindfully. This would then help us eat without craving and strengthen our mindfulness. That’s what the Buddha advised, and there is something spiritually wholesome about this; and not simply not eat meat.

If you choose to be a vegetarian, well go ahead. Do check with other knowledgeable vegetarians about having a balanced vegetarian diet. You need to make sure that you have adequate protein, B12, and zinc.

But for your own sake, do not hold to that view that there is something spiritually wholesome about being a vegetarian. Also, it would certainly not be wise to think oneself superior due to one’s choice of food. Check yourself whenever you see others eat meat. Furthermore, it would be definitely improper to impose such wrong view upon others.

This message has been written to inform, and not criticize or offend. Hope it has been regarded in proper light.

Samanera Kumara Liew
06 June 1999

As stated within this second quote, it is not my intention to discourage anyone from being a vegetarian, ONLY, to demonstrate there is nothing inherently better or worse about.

It does not make one a better martial artist or a better Buddhist than a meat eater, it should be merely viewed as a personal choice and not something that makes one better or superior than others, but then neither does it make one inferior either. It is merely a personal choice.

If one becomes too wrapped up in what they think are the rules and regulations of Buddhism they bind themselves to false thoughts and create their own chains binding them to samsara!:):wink:

[QUOTE=Matthew;1165764]Because there are always far too many variables involved to ever prove this outright, we have some clininal research that says volumes about mood irregularity, depression/negativity, and mental health issues associated with meat consumption.

http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/plant-based-diet-mood/
http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/improving-mood-through-diet/

What kind of secondary or tertiary conclusions that can be made from this would be speculative for the most part.. Although I’d easily say most vegetarians and vegans I know are very stable in mood relative to meat eaters I know. Of course these findings are not definitive as well, although they fully reflect my own experience and that of others I’ve heard from.

Even if science could prove something as immensely specific as ‘eating meat SPECIFICALLY creates greed, anger, and desire’ (although it would first require semantic debate over the meaning of the words, what they practically mean, etc etc) it would likely be glossed over by the mainstay western health publicity, as has been most of the plant-based animal product lifestyle-eating findings.

If reducing mental health/heart/body complications and disease isn’t showing you much improved progress/results in your martial practice/cultivation (buddhist or otherwise), it’s probably factors other than diet as cause![/QUOTE]

We must always be careful not to confuse correlation with cause. It is rarely a good idea to allow social/psychological studies to be the basis for determining certain attitudes and beliefs we choose to follow.

In each human being, there are far too many variables that influence attitudes and behaviors. It is often the biases of the researcher that determines what conclusions may be drawn from such studies.

Inherently it is clinging to false ideas/concepts that creates desire, anger, greed, etc.

Time and effort is better spent addressing the true problem rather than getting caught up in minutia that distracts from the essential cause.