Shaolin and Wing Chun informative...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

Savi,

You use the terms “complete understanding” and “complete system” in your latest post. Would you mind defining what you mean by “complete”? Have you met anyone with this “complete” understanding of WCK? And why isn’t it that they have come forward? :wink: TN

You also write “the platforms of SNT/SLT, CK, BJ seem to have their own philosophies and ideas per lineage.” From my pespective, lineage has nothing to do with it – WCK is WCK, it is individuals that have varying levels of understanding and skill. Lineage is just a boat to get one across the river; we don’t carry the boat on our back after we get to the other side. TN

Terence

82

Does that make sense or just make you hungry?

LOL! It does, but it’s a false analogy. Performing Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee one after the other is not mixing ingredients, it is placing one ingredient after the other (as skilled chefs will often do). Your analogy would only be appropriate if the individual motions within the set were being mixed together. Do you understand the difference, or am I merely increasing your hunger? LOL!

Also, please keep in mind its been suggested by many people over the years (I believe Yip Chun at one point as well), that the set was originally one longer set with three sections, and someone (often pointed to Wong Wah-Bo) split them into three separate sets as part of the teaching process.

As any good student of WCK would tell you, however, its still the finger and not the moon. You should be able to do all your sets one after the other without pause, and be able to do every movement separate and distinct.

Ok. But understanding the terms Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee is not.

Saam Pai Fut is often used for the Tan/Wu/Fuk section in Siu Lien Tao, but it is prepended and appended by other sections, does this mean if you actually train the whole Siu Lien Tao, you have “lost” Saam Pai Fut, or that you don’t understand the term? Do you see now why it’s not a question? Or am I just making you want to pray?

In no way do I share the same skepticism of the oral history of my family that I have of Hendrick’s theory. Not by a long shot!

That’s interesting in that Hendrik’s theory is supported by independant historical information while the Shaolin theory is more often contradicted by it. Do you think if they were reversed (Hendrik espoused the Shaolin theory and yours the Emei/Fujian one) you would more likely believe Hendrik?

To date I have yet to find one.

LOL! Then, no disrespect, but you’re either not trying very hard, or you’re deliberately ignoring them. EVERYTHING, every story, every legend, every factual history has problems. Every one. We’ve pointed out dozens in the Shaolin theory over the years (as others have pointed out in mine, in Hendrik’s, in others). Heck, even relatively recent North American history has disagreement, has problems. IMHO, its the same as training. If you pretend not to have problem areas, you won’t get as far as if you recognize them and work at it, either finding answers to improve them, or finding a different approach that doesn’t have them. Here’s an example. Originally, one problem with the Tan Sao Ng theory was that it was chronologically impossible. Tan Sao Ng is 1730ish couldn’t directly teach Wong Wah-Bo et. al. in the 1850s as was claimed. Now, that time has been filled in with several more generations. A potential solution to the problem (which, btw, back then, no one claimed was a problem ;).

Hi Tom,

I am not sure why this is even a debate.

I’m kind of shaking my head to. I hope its just an honest misunderstanding, now hopefully made clearer.

Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches.

Yup, and you can find the same Siu Lien Tao learned by Hendrik from Cho Hung Hoi trained in China by descendants of Cho Chuen. Not every branch can show their roots and verify their material, which makes it kinda ironic to shift the focus thataway.

Hi Savi,

Congrats to those at Meng’s of AZ who have passed their test.

Like belt ranking tests? If so, congrats. Any cool war stories? Anyone blitz through 10 fights, drop down for Hindu squats, then roar a Goldberg-ian, “Who’s next?” 8)

I guess no one has read the Cheung Ng article yet? Maybe maybe not, but I hope it helped those who did read it, yo.

If its the one that was published a year or two ago, read it at the time. Has it been updated?

83

BTW - Cheers to Hendrik for politely and effectively answering the many (even disengenuous) questions on Yik Kam/Cho Ga. Rather than trying to cloud the issues with personal attacks, rather than recruiting 100 young Cho’s to assault the message board, rather than claim secrets, yet-to-be-revealed factoids, or screech about disrespect, he’s repeatedly provided more, solid, independantly verifiable information. Not only does that elevate the current discussion, it provides a great example that hopefully others will follow.

84

P.S. Rene,I guess you’re a Hendrik supporter, abit like me being a VTM supporter

Nope, I’m a WCK supporter. I’ve put up a mini-site for Hendrik, much as I have for David Peterson, Andreas Hoffmann, and others since they’re kind enough to share, and the least I can do is help get their sharing out.

The difference is, that my support isn’t blind. If tomorrow, one of them came out with some outlandish claim about being the only true complete traditional authentic super secret branch of WCK descended from Adam, and started insulting everyone else all the while providing not one shred of supporting evidence, I’d, well, no longer be a supporter. :wink:

BTW - In hopes of keeping with the moderators previous repeated requests, and staying on topic, this will be my last reply to you on the matter.

85

TN - Sometimes it feels like I’m being asked to write books for people! LOL!

86

I knew we shouldda started another thread

Hi Tom - Actually my nana has passed away. Man do i miss her and her cooking. But I bet my mom’s tortilla’s are better than your Nana’s !!! LOL :smiley:

With regards to analogies, by thier very nature they are not the same as to the object being subjected to the analogy. Analogies are used to illustrate a similarity between objects not to prove them the same.

Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches. - Tom

I never called into question the validity of Yik Kam WC.

Anyways hope you get some fresh tortillas soon and but afterwards, better get in a lot of WC training!!! :smiley:

Savi - Thanks for the kind words … Go to Los Picos they got the good grub !!! If Alma’s there say hi for me …

Hi Rene - Do you have tortillas in Canada??

Performing Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee one after the other is not mixing ingredients

Um … I know I said it was masa

Your analogy would only be appropriate if the individual motions within the set were being mixed together. Do you understand the difference, or am I merely increasing your hunger? LOL! - RR

Considering the context, my analogy is appropriate. No need to try and explain to me what I meant. Yes i do understand the difference but you cannot. Increasing my hunger for what?? Masa ?? Que gacho, hombre!

Also, please keep in mind its been suggested … many people … someone … - RR

Ok Rene I’ll do that :rolleyes:

You should be able to do all your sets one after the other without pause, and be able to do every movement separate and distinct. - RR

Ok … I never said anyone shouldn’t …

Saam Pai Fut is often used for the Tan/Wu/Fuk section in Siu Lien Tao, but it is prepended and appended by other sections, does this mean if you actually train the whole Siu Lien Tao, you have “lost” Saam Pai Fut, or that you don’t understand the term? Do you see now why it’s not a question? Or am I just making you want to pray?

Oh man, are joking with me??? If not, you really don’t get it do you?? Pray for what?? More masa??

That’s interesting in that Hendrik’s theory is supported by independant historical information while the Shaolin theory is more often contradicted by it. - RR

Rene, you make some grandious sponge assumptions! I say sponge because after you absorb stuff there are still holes.

Do you think if they were reversed (Hendrik espoused the Shaolin theory and yours the Emei/Fujian one) you would more likely believe Hendrik? - RR

I know Hendrick has a lot of facts. He’s read a lot of books. I have no problem with his facts. However, I don’t believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

LOL! Then, no disrespect, but you’re either not trying very hard, or you’re deliberately ignoring them. EVERYTHING, every story, every legend, every factual history has problems. - RR

Did you read what I wrote? Was I talking about Shaolin history??Why are you trying to be sly? The quote you posted is taken out of context. Is that how you are choosing to discuss things?

Now I’m shaking my head at your misunderstandings. In the future if you’re not clear on any of my posts just ask me what I meant. That will make communication a lot easier.

Did you have any questions with the last part of my post? Here it is just in case:

… I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be “Not!” 'd on the internet by someone who’s never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn’t even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box. - RR

In your above quote, add WCK systems after “Buddhism or WCK history” and you will be preaching to the choir. - DWC2

-David

87

Hi David,

LOL, you think I’m misunderstanding, and you think I am, how do we resolve this?

Let me give it a try:

Do you have tortillas in Canada??

Of course!

Um … I know I said it was masa

Mix them together and you have masa. (the three forms linked) Cook them you have tortillas. (one SLT form)

“mix” and “link” are not the same thing, that where the analogy falls apart (no pun intended). “mix” would involve scattering the grains of each set with the grains of the others, which has not happened in the case of the three sets, they’re simply linked one after the other. In your analogy, you’d be eating each ingrediant one after the other, not mixing them, and certainly not cooking them. Not as tasty as a tortilla, to be sure :wink:

No need to try and explain to me what I meant.

Communication involves not just your meaning, but the meaning drawn by the reader. Discussion helps us both figure out the other better.

Que gacho, hombre!

You’re begging me to pull out the French, mon ami! :wink:

Ok Rene I’ll do that

If you’re not interested in sincere discussion, please let me know and I won’t invest my time in it either. Otherwise, please consider that I felt the point important in the context, since if the theory is valid (that the set was once one set called Siu Lien Tao and someone, possibly Wong Wah-Bo broke it apart into three separate sets, it makes a lot of the “where’s the chum kiu & biu jee” BS moot).

Ok … I never said anyone shouldn’t …

Cool, cause the point was if someone did, would you ask them where Chum Kiu or Biu Jee was? Of course not, you’d have just seen them.

Oh man, are joking with me??? If not, you really don’t get it do you?? Pray for what?? More masa??

Based on your response, I didn’t think you were “getting it” and so I tried again to reframe my point. Again, if you’e not interested, let me know, and I won’t bother in the future. If you are interested, keeping in mind I’ve been at this a while and been around, please consider that the distinction I’m trying to draw may have some value.

Rene, you make some grandious sponge assumptions! I say sponge because after you absorb stuff there are still holes.

That was cheap. Is that really the direction you find most valuable to take this? If not, again please re-consider my point.

I know Hendrick has a lot of facts. He’s read a lot of books. I have no problem with his facts. However, I don’t believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

LOL! Sometimes I get the feeling I’m discussing this with people beyond this board and “he’s read a lot of books” is the latest boiler-plate retort! LOL! What’s the alternative to having “read a lot of books” and “having a lot of facts”, having read none and having none? Isn’t it a good thing to do research and be informed? Hendrik is also Chinese and has been many times to China and South East Asia, and spent time hands-on while there as well. He’s also been researching this topic for roughly 30 years, before some of us were born, before some of our sifu/sigungs even began practicing the art. While I’m not yet convinced as to his theory, he has done far more than most, and I will respect him, his generosity in sharing (especially since he’s not offering a tape series, expanding a set of schools, etc.) what is in many ways his life’s work. He’s earned his knowledge first hand, spent decades honing his skill, and he’s still nice and polite when relative beginners attack him and his lineage without any foundation. Agree or disagree, would that there were more like him around here.

However, I don’t believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

Why? I know my problems with it, as I know my problems with the Shaolin origin theory, but what specifically makes you not believe it? And do you at least believe it might even be remotely possible? (say 1% chance?)

Did you read what I wrote? Was I talking about Shaolin history??Why are you trying to be sly? The quote you posted is taken out of context. Is that how you are choosing to discuss things?

I used the term because, as I’ve mentioned to Savi, if I say “HFY-theory” and I disagree with it, it seems to get taken as an attack on all things HFY and then the conversation quickly devolves. If it helps, replace the word “Shaolin Theory” in that context, and re-consider what I wrote. And I’m not being sly or out of context, I’ve just reached my limit for political BS and am avoiding it like the plague. So yes, I’m choosing to discuss things as non-personally, not politically, a non-HFY or any other labelled way possible. Apologies for trying to stay productive.

Did you have any questions with the last part of my post? Here it is just in case:

No, but then everyone and their sibak thinks they’re a 10%'er.

88

Hello again Rene,

LOL, you think I’m misunderstanding, and you think I am, how do we resolve this?- RR

I understand what you’re saying. The problem is you cannot challenge the validity of my analogy. If I said “each section is an igredient” well that is easily challenged. But thats not what I said. I also understand the “mix” vs. “link” but I don’t think the whole analogy falls apart.

So on this one agree to disagree. It’s that easy.

As you know, I have no problem with disagreement. Just let’s keep it constructive.

… consider that I felt the point important in the context, since if the theory is valid (that the set was once one set called Siu Lien Tao and someone, possibly Wong Wah-Bo broke it apart into three separate sets, it makes a lot of the “where’s the chum kiu & biu jee” BS moot).- RR

I did consider that. Consideration is subjective. You must also consider that, IME, SLT has different connotations. IMO a form called SLT could not contain Chum Kiu/Biu Jee. Well it could but then that creates a bunch of questions. In the SLT of Yik Kam what are the second and third section called?

Cool, cause the point was if someone did, would you ask them where Chum Kiu or Biu Jee was? Of course not, you’d have just seen them. - RR

Rene you can’t play both sides of the fence,man!

Based on your response, I didn’t think you were “getting it” and so I tried again to reframe my point.- RR

I don’t think that’s what you were trying to do Rene. You’re too intelligent to use comparisons like that as simple illustrations.

And I’m not being sly or out of context, I’ve just reached my limit for political BS and am avoiding it like the plague. -RR

LOL !!! Just admit you took it out of context! There was nothing political in my statement. If you view it as such thats on you. I was sharing a personal experience about the system I chose to train in. You fully took one sentence from my comment and applied it to an entirely seperate issue. If thats not out of context what is???

And if you are avoiding politics like the plague why take one sentence and manipulate it’s context like you did?

No, but then everyone and their sibak thinks they’re a 10%'er.-RR

Right … Productive discourse …

-David

89

David- In didn’t mean to imply that you were denying Yik Kam wing chun validity. But it seems that several people are questioning Hendrik’s theories by attacking him or his wing chun. I am not sure how or why it is important how they do their form. But as Rene is pointing out, it is not a mixed up jumbled form. It is as precise as the Yip Man forms. They are simply done in succesion if it helps you to understand it better.

Rene- Has any one researched Tan Sau Ng? He is a real figure as we all know. Pan Nam pointed out his appearance in offical records. I think several opera troupes have stories of him, which we should not discount if we are pointing to stories. I did a search a while back on Tan Sau Ng and came up with some interesting stuff. Anyways, I think your dates are close and it would be near impossible for him to teach the red boat members that we are aware of. If I rememeber correctly what Gee sifu and some of the museum folks said, Tan Sau Ng trained other people, not Wong Wah Bo and such. Is this the current throry now?

Tom

VAPIR ONE V5.0 REVIEW

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Hello Tom,

There is a saying in Buddhism.
That, there always are false profets who always try to destroy Surangama Sutra.

Why? because these pretenders do not like people to find out who they are. In Surangama sutra, there are 52 types of false Saint like that… And they scare when the truth comes out they will be vanishing similar to the Dracula meeting the Sun Light.

However, they fail.
Because Surangama means the un destructable.

Sun has raised. The Spring has been secured. The darkness will be over soon.

As a story, for the so called buddhist who doesn’t belive in it. well, we know who they are…
:smiley:

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Hi Hendrik,

I am not so sure about the Buddhist teachings. I always appreciate some insight. I think human nature hasn’t changed much over a millinium. I think the Buddhists wrestled with these topics as did the greeks as the formed the basics of logic. In any case, all I see is silly attacks and illogical statments.

My thoughts are much like Rene’s. I think you and some others have presented some interesting data that is plausible. Other stories just don’t add up. If we look at them with a critical eye, we can begin to unravel the mystery. I support more than one theory and discount others. That don’t mean mine are right and others are wrong. I support your theory so far because it makes sense to me. I have met you and I like you and think you have some thing valuable to share. However, if you tell me Hsu Chi (sp?) created wing chun, I might have to discount your theory. LOL.

My thoughts are to expose all the theories clearly. Discuss the data that supports each theory and discuss the theory the discounts or contradicts the theory. Perhaps this would be a worth while activity. I am unemployed and would love to work on it if every one sent me a page or two writting of their theory. Then every one can send me the data that supports or discredits the opponents theory along with a source. We could do the postings here on this forum and I can post them on my, the VTM’s, and Rene’s website along with any one else. Then maybe we could start to unwrap this mess.

I think people are too entrenched in their family styles to challenge them. The funny thing is if a different school was accessable to them, many would adopt a different view. LOL. I think they call it enculteration. LOL.

Just some comments and thoughts,

Tom

Video review

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((My answers in brackets))

Tom sez:I am not so sure about the Buddhist teachings.

(Understandable))

I always appreciate some insight.

((!!!))

I think human nature hasn’t changed much over a millinium.

((Really Tom- that is some gneralization- we would get lost in the Gobi desert trying to clarify that asserion))

I think the Buddhists wrestled with these topics as did the greeks as the formed the basics of logic.

((What does that mean— there are many systems pf logic))

In any case, all I see is silly attacks and illogical statments.

(True))

My thoughts are much like Rene’s. I think you and some others have presented some interesting data that is plausible. Other stories just don’t add up. If we look at them with a critical eye, we can begin to unravel the mystery.

(( I like mysteries- but prefer doing wing chun. Hendrik has provided more info. than most of his detractors. But tracing martial arts history is a very murky task and is likely to remain so. The Emei connection sounds intriguing but not yet definitive.
More intriguing than knee jerk shouts of Shaolin. Partly because of my background- despite Hendrik’s English (and mine) I have a good sense for his references to Chan epistemology and also the large Surangama Sutra. He loses me on his references to the Matrix and the like. I have not met him so I dont know what his form really looks like))

However, if you tell me Hsu Chi (sp?) created wing chun, I might have to discount your theory. LOL.

((better Hsu Chi than Brabara Walters, Roseanne, or Mama Cass))

Then maybe we could start to unwrap this mess.

((hahah- good luck- the Gobi desert again))

I think people are too entrenched in their family styles to challenge them.

((Lots of variations within families- look at Ip Man’s family))

joy

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Hi Tom,

Sure Hsu Chi created WCK. LOL.:smiley:

Thanks for sharing you heart. Appreciated.

You know, seriously. I don’t really care for my theory or whose theory as soon as it makes sense to help me and everyone to live better.

name, lineage… doesn’t matter. The content that can help us be more balance, healty, and have a better life is most importanting.

Yik Kam is in TaiPing and Hung Mun. The Hung Mun code is there.. But then, I sometimes look at the Taiping as a cult. A cult that end up alots of people who belive in it dies… In the name of GOD all sin was carried out. Do we want that? Ofcause not.

To be honest, there is much to translate into english. and some needs experience. only after one has experienced them, one can translate it properly without get trap into a chinese/english translation… But then, you need to be employed first. We all have to bring bread to the table.

Hendrik

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Re: ((My answers in brackets))

Originally posted by yuanfen
[B](( I like mysteries- but prefer doing wing chun. Hendrik has provided more info. than most of his detractors. But tracing martial arts history is a very murky task and is likely to remain so. The Emei connection sounds intriguing but not yet definitive.
More intriguing than knee jerk shouts of Shaolin. Partly because of my background- despite Hendrik’s English (and mine) I have a good sense for his references to Chan epistemology and also the large Surangama Sutra. He loses me on his references to the Matrix and the like. I have not met him so I dont know what his form really looks like))

[/B]

Hey Joy,

LOL. ofcause we need Matrix right? ha ha ha

My form actually is not far different from your as soon as the Kundalini (let’s use anything you can related to) is triggle.
But then my form will not be yours. because only me can do mine and you can do yours.

Certainly, the form comes with details description…

Say there is a saying " Bil Jee is poison and use it in emergency" is in the second section of the YK SLT. The third section are about close range…

But then, no big deal, everyone’s form is original. Be it Ip Man’s, YKS’, Koo Loo…

As the chinese saying, " Hero doesn’t depend on DNA, the man has to work hard and self responsible on oneself".

For me, one cannot sell ancestors.

I once heard the MIT professor told me the Space travel Museum is just a Tomb. Space travel belongs to now and future. it is alive not dead and lying in tomb.

Museum doesnt turn me on. Technology does. Matrix does. TaiPing doesn’t. the very lifely and energetic Hsu Chi does. And, the rigid fomulars for fighting don’t. IMO.

for me, there is only art with/without life. original or the oldest doesn’t matter. if people understand my bottom line. adding more steps… in a set does nothing. if the set doesn’t have life.

one doesn’t do form. one just express oneself’s capability with form.

Hendrik

95

I think Tom has made a wonderful suggestion. I hope people will take him up on his offer and send him the outline of their theories along with supporting evidence so he can lay them out side by side for consideration. This is such a long thread and I have limited time so I tend to lose track of the logic flow. Could someone at least please summarize Hendrik’s theory and evidence in a reasonably short post? It has been spread out over the entire thread and for those of us that haven’t been following the discussion since the beginning it is still a bit vague. Thanks!

Keith

96

Hi Rene,

This world is strange.

People love to stick with oral story but question the writing legacy which comes with factual evidents.

People love to address subject similar to an expert disregard of having no understanding on the subject at all.

Tom,

Actually, I don’t have a Theory. I just translate what has been found. and what have been recorded for past 100 year…
AS for other’s theory, certainly it is respectable. However, with factual data , we still might call a hypothesis a partial theory not a factual data.

as for those without factual data at all, that is just speculation.

Now, how can a speculation be consider theory? It can’t.

Further more, the question is why does one even needs the co exist of two sets of SLT and SNT?

If the teaching is soo original and secret and olderst as one claim. There should be a detail Kuen Kuit passed down with Legacy, family tree. If one cannot even show that then there is no substance. If one claim that family tree has to be secretive. Read this months’ Kungfu magazine as an example. Look at the Taiwan Hung Mun, how come they can published thier material openly?

Certainly, people can disagree with me. However, since the Hung Mun at Taiping era has also being demostration at Dien Chun Dang and so Yik Kam’s code or CLF’s Code has no longer anti gorvenment effect but a part of history of the struggling of Chinese ancestors. So why can’t be all of these to be make public and praise as hero for some? Doesn’t make sense.

97

speaking strictly in terms of appearance,why/how did
the chinese develop boxing forms that look/act the way
they do?however,the west went for the jab/hook style
we see in sports boxing.a rather enty level question i
know,but it makes me ponder.also!!!before i forget,all
brits buy combat this month,very heavy with wck!!!and
on a tan sau,[left hand] when i bring my thumb in a tad,
my index finge curls slightly.not though,on my right???
am i gimped in some fashion.?

Russell.

98

revived thread

Ok, lets see if this thread can continue…

99

Sandman,

You see beyond the end and the begining.

Thumbs up!

Roger

100

Thank heavens, you’re flexible!

Hendrik wrote:

as for those without factual data at all, that is just speculation.

Now, how can a speculation be consider theory? It can’t.

Hendrik,

Someone suggests that “Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam’s Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.”

Do you agree with this statement?

When and where and how did Wong Wah-Bo learn his WCK from Yik Kam? Or, Is this just another assumption of a false theory?