Shaolin and Wing Chun informative...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

Tom,

Again, IMHO, why is people emphasis Gee Sim so much that Ng Mui is being ignore? in the legend, Ng Mui is the Crane master . she survived the ambush of Shao Lin… Gee Sim did not.

Now, it seems that some how, Gee Sim become a now a day “one stop shoping” master. Gee Sim has it all.

Soon he becomes a YUGi OH master… (sigh) if no evidents presented and continous to speculate.

I am not against anyone or any style or any lineage. IMHO, just for discussion. To be honest, I found some sifus one generation older sometimes is not as literate and mixing up story. Can’t blame them for they were trying their best.

However, are we going to continous on the mis communication they makes?

we have seen the potrait even for Dao Jong or Hung Mun. we can lock the place and time of Hung Fa Ting. We have seen the preserve teaching of White Crane Bubishi. We have seen the preserve teaching of Shao LIn. We have seen the preserve teaching of emei. … We even have seen the documentation of General Qih Qi-Kuan of Ming Dynasty.

To be real honest, there is another can of worm from Ming Dynasty martial art which I can open. But I am not going to do so now… do we have the data? yes. we have it.

Now, it is just an interpolation. there are data of the pre and post era… IMHO

Now, still no one shows us a picture of Chesim, a kuen kuit of Chesim.. beside Hung Gar related.

it is a simple even as i see, imho, no need to get into Ming dynasty, General Chen Sin-Kung, Hung Fa Ting, Yat Nim…
when one cut throught everthing. there is not much stunning new invention or revolution but evolution.

Just my 2 cents and I can be wrong. Just for discussion. and no offense.

62

Hendrik- agree on the Dalai Lama and the hungar/taiji mix
rather than wck in the cho link in this thread by Dezhen.
Thanks.

63

Yoda’s claim…

Rene Ritchie wrote:

David -

> "From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

> From Emie to Yik Kam’s family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik’s SLT)" - RH

> This is the message Jim should have posted.

Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam’s Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.

Are you suggesting that Wong Wah-Bo learned his WCK from Yik Kam?

64

“Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam’s Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.” - RR

Hi Rene - Thank’s but this “clarification” isn’t really that helpfull. With all due respect - even after all Hendrick’s posts all I see is that in Hendrick’s family they have only one form and in his WC he identifies heavily with the Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang.

To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn’t add up. All I’ve read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to “this sounds like it could be this so it must be”.

IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I’ve heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim’s comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.

I’ve seen a few sets with a stationary, “high horse” posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system?

Books on 12 Zhuang, books on Hung Mun, books on Fujian White Crane, books on top of books on top of books … come on, man !!
There are great maxims on learning from books.

So thanks but, I think Rolling_Hand had it right with his summation. (Actually both of them)

I am of the mind to continue sharing yours, Rolling_Hand’s and others scepticism on Hendrick’s origination theory of Wing Chun.

-David

P.S. To say that the two middle sections of Yik Kam’s (Hendrick’s) SLT is analogous to Chum Kiu/Biu Jee is a more forthcoming answer than “it’s in there”. Allow me to redirect you to dictionary.com once more …

Analogous - anal·o·gous 1 : showing an analogy or a likeness that permits one to draw an analogy

analogy - anal·o·gy
1 : inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will prob. agree in others.
2 a : resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY
b : comparison based on such resemblance

Simply stated, if its analogous it’s not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not “in there”. So the question remains where is Hendrick’s Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??

65

Roger and David,

Hello David,

Simply stated, if its analogous it’s not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not “in there”. So the question remains where is Hendrick’s Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??

No need to repeat this answer. Read above as to what was said to Roger and repeated in the past.

To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn’t add up. All I’ve read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to “this sounds like it could be this so it must be”.

Have you ever seen Fukien Crane? Nobody was there 150 years ago! So, all we can do is compare, discuss, link, compare some more and go with what is more likely than less likely. The other thing is if WC was passed onto the Red Boat people and different lineages stemming from the Red Boat remain incredibly similar then that should say something. Leung Jan’s teaching in Koo Lo, Yuen Kay San’s teaching and the Cho families teaching are very similar so if more than one lineage from the Red Boat are so similar then perhaps what was practiced on the Red Boat was very similar at one point.

IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I’ve heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim’s comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.

Very true! Most South Fist has a lot of similarity but then people do not just come up with new stuff out of the blue. Even if people start thinking they want to develop something new they still need to make the changes and without the help from someone with different knowledge they will most likely not come up with something so different in mechanics/soft jing. Plus! these south fists arts were new ways of thinking and applying. Mantis is only 150 years old or so. Crane a bit older. Bak Mei and Dragon cannot be found before the late 1800’s. All their stories state that they wer the new and effective Kung Fu that was meant to be learned in a shorter time period.

I’ve seen a few sets with a stationary, “high horse” posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system?

If i showed you many of the Mantis skills you would think it was some weird WC. Plus! its not so different form some Crane just a bit more fluid. How many of these arts actually have a history without the typical BS in it??? How many link to the fabled 5? So, some real research and open minded thinking can help sort thru the mysterious dreamy histories and link something more logical.

Ok! Lets put all this stuff to rest for a second and think about this question!

Q) If WC was a new way of thinking, and a new high development from Shaolin, how do you feel they went from the typical harder breathing and contraction of muscle on contact to the softer more natural breathing without needing to contract the muscles as WC does?

Do you feel they come up with it on their own?

Do you feel they pooled their knowledge and come up with it combined?

Do you think there is a slight chance that someone had some other knowledge may have had input to re-design the core make up of their boxing or something else?

Guys,

This is not religion or anything life saving. Its just history! We should look at it with open minds and think about different possibilities. I know everyone wants to be the original, or the secret art of Shaolin as it sounds so cool, but we all know most histories are full or BS (and some truth) so lets work together and share with open minds.

You know! One of the basic concepts of the earliest stages of WCK is “Sung”! It seems all this tension people have shows they have not grasped the Sung concept of letting go. Lets relax the mind so it can be in a tranquil state and absorb with is coming at you! That includes others views/opinions! I think we should all do some more Siu Lin Tau.

Regards,

66

desertwingchun2 sez (echoing the more rude troll): So the question remains where is Hendrick’s Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??

Hendrik brings out many intriguing points- they are not connected yet for me- but they are more intriguing than dogmatism on Shaolin.
Much TCMA has that primeval cry of “Shaolin”- which has many meanings- a specific place., an idea. a myth..which one… northern, southern?

new remains of Buddhist temples show up from time to time.There are several different shaolins…Canton was once the home of shaolin too in the development of southern Chan and probaly had a relevant temple at one time. Temple destruction and burning were common in China’s long histoy.There is much that we dont know and its still too early to have a definitive history.

However, the focus on Hendrik’s supposed absence of chum kiu and biu jee is misplaced. Three points:

  1. as Hendrik himself points out wong kew kit(sp?) in his web site
    is mixing different things up as Hendrik himself agrees-but it is different from Hendrik’s thesis.

  2. I withold judgement till I see Hendrik’s form… which I have not seen. I do think that there are some mixed up kung fu in southeast asia. Mixing in hung gar, taichi etc…

  3. But importantly slt, chum kiu and biu jee at an advanced level can become interconnected into one integrated form! Different chapters of a crucial text! In the Ip Man tradition(IMO) the chapters are logically placed in sequence keeping principles and their links in mind.

67

Yuanfen wrote:

  1. I withold judgement till I see Hendrik’s form… which I have not seen. I do think that there are some mixed up kung fu in southeast asia. Mixing in hung gar, taichi etc…

Agreed!

When will Hendrik show his complete Emie SLT here?

68

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]

Agreed!

When will Hendrik show his complete Emie SLT here? [/B]

when Rolling Hand and David both proof that they both are not the cover up or covert spy of Qing who is trying to disturb the Mung Mun brothers of red boat opera in the name of Shao Lin :smiley:

For Roger and David,
Evidents of DNA, Platform, the exact ancestors legacy up to red boat…and full kuen kuit of your set are needed to be audiance.
otherwise who can we all from Red Boat know you are not spy of Qing?
:smiley:

69

Jim- Chinese “history” is not horseXXXX- just different ways to tell stories…goes for western histories too- different historiographies-different capsulaization of impressions of reality..

Gee Shim the person cannot be at the temple burning and the boat in the same life time -true. But in translation and oral traditions— it is not always easy to distinguish between individuals and metaphors.

I was struck by the discovery once …
many translations once said that the Boddhidharma crossed the Yangste ona “reed”-a preposterous assertion. Later it was pointed out that the translation could be a “reed boat” and sure enough there were reed boats to cross the Yangste.

BTW- the 3 hand forms are linked and IMO can be regarded as one text or form… but Chapter 2 wont make sense until one learns chapter 1 well… stand well before walking etc.

Ignore the troll. Dont feed the troll.

70

Hi Jim, Joy, Rene, Tom…

Check this out about Shao Lin legend…

Some one probably can translate for us…

http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html

is there a Southern Shao Lin? is the southern Shao LIn has anything to do with the friction Evergreen… and the Xilu Tale…
is the Shao lin DNA same with WCK DNA?.. is CheeSim a good guy or bad guy in the friction Evergreen?

See for yourself. See how the historians say?

And then may be we can stop to import Pokemon into real life…

71

Hi Jim -

No need to repeat this answer. Read above as to what was said to Roger and repeated in the past. JR

Absolutly agree! Please don’t repeat “it’s in there” because like Rene pointed out it’s not!

Have you ever seen Fukien Crane? - JR

Nothing but stills. Heard some kuen kuits though. They sound similar to Wing Chun but the question I asked you and my Sihing sounded similar as well didn’t it? But they had different meaning and different ways of thinking. Even though the question sounded the same looked the same etc … It had different “DNA” each time.

Leung Jan’s teaching in Koo Lo, Yuen Kay San’s teaching and the Cho families teaching are very similar so if more than one lineage from the Red Boat are so similar then perhaps what was practiced on the Red Boat was very similar at one point. - JR

Wing Chun was definetly on the Red Boats.

Most South Fist has a lot of similarity but then people do not just come up with new stuff out of the blue. Even if people start thinking they want to develop something new they still need to make the changes and without the help from someone with different knowledge they will most likely not come up with something so different in mechanics/soft jing.- JR

Excellent thinking!! Let me ask you this - How long has the study of areonautics been around? Lots of new ways of thinking. So why are the final bidders Lockheed and Boeing?

Plus! these south fists arts were new ways of thinking and applying. - JR

Right!! To what depths would the collaborations go at such an exciting time?? Learning, studying, refining is invigorating!!

Q) If WC was a new way of thinking, and a new high development from Shaolin, how do you feel they went from the typical harder breathing and contraction of muscle on contact to the softer more natural breathing without needing to contract the muscles as WC does? - JR

When looking to be innovative it makes sense to go back to the basics and deal with the true nature of things. All things. More specifically Time, Space and Energy. Of course paramount is the relationship to human structures. Contrary to Hendrick’s assumption, when understood and applied there is no separation and that’s truth.

Do you feel they come up with it on their own?
Do you feel they pooled their knowledge and come up with it combined? - JR

I don’t understand your question. I gave my opinion regarding WC being a synthesis of arts. Am I missing something?

Do you think there is a slight chance that someone had some other knowledge may have had input to re-design the core make up of their boxing or something else?

Who is the they in question? Who’s boxing skills core? Much knowledge led to the design of Wing Chun. The way I see Wing Chun is analogous to the new F-35.

Thanks for the discussion.

FWIW - Everything here is tranquilo.

-David

72

Hendrik,

I am not sure why Gee Shim is getting more popular. In many wing chun stories he transmitted the pole form. In others, he was the sole creator. Yet, we have little evidence that he ever lived and that the southern temple ever existed. It may have, but even the “professionals” are not sure. But if we are to look at Gee Shim, then we need to look at sources outside of wing chun.

Joy spoke about the oral traditions if chinese martial arts. I think there could be some truths in it. And I also think there are great holes. We can barely say what happend 50 years ago. How do we know what happened 200+ years ago? Yip Man’s life and teaching is shrouded in mystery, but we know the intent of the founders and even the exact hall that wing chun was created in. I think there are even those that share the dialog. History always has a way of evolving over time. Did George Washington tell a lie and did he cut down a cherry tree?

The funny thing is no one knows the location of the southern temple. It is NOT in any local documents or records, unlike the northern temple. It simply “vanished”. Mix this with the seemingly identical stories of the northern and southern temples. LOL. People can’t even get the temples stories straight. Was Bak Mei and Ng Mui in the northern or southern Temple? I have heard both. Were did Ng Mui go after she fled the destroyed temple? See went to the white crane temple, or Ermei. Were is the southern temple supposedly located? Fuiken. That right there supports the Ermie and White crane theory to some degree.

I am not sure why people are scared to look into the truth, or to explore only one version of it. We have several interesting stories and we should start to lay it out and see where it goes. There are a lot of interesting things to note. Wing Chun does have things in common with white crane, Southern Mantis, Leung Ying. There seems to be some similiarities with Hung Gar, but I don’t think it is that much. Certainly not in principles, structure, and power generation.Yet wing chun is completly unique to every other common art. Is it a blend from a natural evolution? Is it synthesized to beat all the other arts? Can we really ever know?

My prediction. People will not really care to see or explore the truth. Rather they will cling on to little shreds of oral tradition as if they are gospel, dispite historical inacruacies and contradictions in other legends. People will continue to bash others and conduct Ad Hominen attacks rather than discuss the points at hand. Troll will be trolls. Others will Screen silently into the night.

Tom

Wiki vaporizer

73

In the Leung Ting book Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun there is a style that looks like Wing Chun that comes from Leung Lan Kwai called Fut Chang Buddhist Palms maybe this style Fut Chang Buddhist Palms is one of the styles that Wing Chun comes from ?

74

Hi David,

<<“Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam’s Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.” - RR

Hi Rene - Thank’s but this “clarification” isn’t really that helpfull. With all due respect - even after all Hendrick’s posts all I see is that in Hendrick’s family they have only one form and in his WC he identifies heavily with the Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang. >>David

**David, please allow me to say thank You. You work hard to make others to see your points.

<<To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn’t add up. All I’ve read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to “this sounds like it could be this so it must be”.>>David

**I was born in Fatshan. I had seen many styles of WCK in China. Our WCK ancestors should be the same, but the practioners - Yiu Kay, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, they are different. Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK. As for Hendrik’s Cho family art(Emie 12 Zheung + White Crane). Evidently, a certain someone needs reminding, WCK is WCK, Emie is Emie. Sometimes You’d like to believe that people know better than to pull a fast one.

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

<<IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I’ve heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim’s comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.>>Daivd

**Some of my own consins are also Pak-Mei and Mantis practioners in Fatshan. IMO, WCK is WCK, not like other Southern Kung-Fu.

<<I’ve seen a few sets with a stationary, “high horse” posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system? >>David

**A donkey cannot be a horse, they’re different DNA.

<<Books on 12 Zhuang, books on Hung Mun, books on Fujian White Crane, books on top of books on top of books … come on, man !!
There are great maxims on learning from books.>>David

**LOL, you thought you’d seen the last of certain someone. Just give this person 2 mims & 2 seconds, he’d post another so-called “SLT-blab blab blab-what do you think?”.

<<So thanks but, I think Rolling_Hand had it right with his summation. (Actually both of them)>>David

**Fresh air.

<<I am of the mind to continue sharing yours, Rolling_Hand’s and others scepticism on Hendrick’s origination theory of Wing Chun.>>David

**Sometimes, when WCK doesn’t work according to expectations, please don’t rush to say anything bad about anybody, especially about our Shaolin ancestors.

<<Simply stated, if its analogous it’s not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not “in there”. So the question remains where is Hendrick’s Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??>>David

**Yeah, someone also said “Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam’s Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.”
After reading this, I would like to ask this expert a question - “Did you actaully learn this story from Wong Wah-Bo or Hendrik?”.
Then, when and where and how did Wong Wah-Bo learn his WCK from Yik Kam? Or, Is this just another assumption of a false theory?

Roger Rollinghand

75

Re: Hi David,

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]

**I was born in Fatshan. I had seen many styles of WCK in China. Our WCK ancestors should be the same, but the practioners - Yiu Kay, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, they are different.

Roger Rollinghand [/B]

Roger Rollinghand

Great to know you was born in Fatshan, you must know chinese well.

Since you english is better then me.

Why don’t you translante what written here from the historians about Tein Tee Hui, Jee Shim, Shao Lin…

http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html

So David from the desert can know from you what is what in the eyes of Chinese historians…

And certainly, if you disagree from what the website post. You don’t have to translate. However, then, you have to show evidents to convince the world your view.

Thanks in advance!

76

Rolling_Hand - Thank you for the kind words …

Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK.- RH

Kinnda like being in the center of a circle and not seeing the differences but more understanding the similarities?

**A donkey cannot be a horse, they’re different DNA.- RH

How true!

Hendrick says:
… So David from the desert can know from you what is what in the eyes of Chinese historians…

Knowing no wine peddler yells “sour grapes!” … Do you need a mint?

-David

77

David,

Apologies, I’m having a hard time communicating this. You learned the Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee of the Moy Yat line, correct? Have you ever done or seen them one after the other without stopping in between? Many schools, including Yip Man and Sum Nung do it this way from occasionally to often. If you do it this way, you end up with one, longer, progressive set. Does this mean you no longer have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee? No.

This is how Hendrik’s lineage does the set, as one long sequence without stops in between. Dwelling on the names of the middle two sets/sections is staring at the finger.

I do have questions still about Hendrik’s theory, of which you also seem skeptical. Do you share the same skepticism about the Shaolin theory?

Joy/Hendrik - Thanks for sharing. I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be “Not!” 'd on the internet by someone who’s never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn’t even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box.

78

Hi Rene - to address your questions …

If you do it this way, you end up with one, longer, progressive set. Does this mean you no longer have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee? - RR

The way you chose to address the issue was very sly and skillfull. Your approach goes beyond a yes or no answer. Probably should dedicate a thread to this. it would be interesting hearing different views. For the sake of being brief I would say … when making tortillas you have basically have water, lard and flour. (SNT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee) Mix them together and you have masa. (the three forms linked) Cook them you have tortillas. (one SLT form) All the ingredients are in there but now its a tortilla. So if you sent it to the lab they will find traces of the original ingredients but they’re no longer true to their nature. Does that make sense or just make you hungry?

Dwelling on the names of the middle two sets/sections is staring at the finger. - RR

Ok. But understanding the terms Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee is not.

I do have questions still about Hendrik’s theory, of which you also seem skeptical. Do you share the same skepticism about the Shaolin theory? - RR

I’m skeptical about alot of things. Just my background I guess. But the more time I spend doing my own research the less skeptical I become. In no way do I share the same skepticism of the oral history of my family that I have of Hendrick’s theory. Not by a long shot!

Talking about being skeptical, reminds me of conversations I’ve had with my sifu. When I started learning the HFYWC system I was very skeptical not unlike some here on this forum. I looked very hard for inconsistantcies in the training meathodology, marketing hooks or anything where I could say “ok that’s the angle”. To date I have yet to find one. For me it reaffirms that I made the right decision regarding my Wing Chun journey. It also makes me very appreciative of Master Gee’s efforts to bring Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to the public.

… I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be “Not!” 'd on the internet by someone who’s never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn’t even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box. - RR

In your above quote, add WCK systems after “Buddhism or WCK history” and you will be preaching to the choir.

Thanks for the discussion

-David

79

Hi David,

Hmmmm Tortilla’s. mmmmm. Now, I wont way my wing chun is better than yours, but I will say my Grandma’s Tortilla’s are better than your! ; ). Ohh how I miss a fresh batch of home made tortillas. LOL.

Anyways, back to the point. I think you analogy is a good one. Take One part Wing Chun and a pinch of boxing and you get JKD. Neither wing chun nor boxing, but a mix of the two. Kind of like mixing up the lard, flour, and water. However, who said Yik Kam sets are mixed all up like a tortilla? I say the sets, have you? The sets are very distinct. I can not recall the sequences, but many are very close with a different flavor to the other sets I have seen in various wing chun families. The Siu Nim Tao section is first. Then comes the Chum Kiu. Last is Biu Jee type sections. So it is not a hodge podge mix, but a linkage. I think this would be analagous to placing the butter between the water and lard.

I am not sure why this is even a debate. Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches. It has a history and is fairly well known. The sets follow logically as other wing chun sets do. Things that are not supposed to be there are not.

Just my thoughts
Tom

Ebony Oral Creampie

80

Tortillas, stomach growl…

Hey guys! Weekend’s over and I am slowly catching up with the posts on this thread. Congrats to those at Meng’s of AZ who have passed their test. You all did very well.

David, your last post here has excellent points! You and I are on the same page. I think I will have some tortillas for lunch today! Now that I think about it, I haven’t had those in a while…

Two things can happen:

  1. a ‘blending’ of information can lose quality and lack complete understanding:

A. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ) = (SNT/SLT), OR…

  1. a ‘blending’ of information can strengthen quality and enhance understanding:

A. (SNT + SLT) = CK, then…

B. (SNT/SLT + CK) = BJ, and then…

C. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ) = weapons, AND THEENNNN…

D. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ + weapons) = complete fighting system, ultimately coming to…

E. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ + weapons) x (combat + health + philo) = complete system :slight_smile:

The platforms of SNT/SLT, CK, BJ seem to have their own philosophies and ideas per lineage. What end result each approach wields will allow one to determine if they are of the #1 or #2 variety.

I guess no one has read the Cheung Ng article yet? Maybe maybe not, but I hope it helped those who did read it, yo.