Hideous isn’t it…
Tinman
Are you under the impression that I gave up on, or don’t like karate anymore?I don’t ever recall impling that.
I still train my karate along with my other martial arts.
Yes, Kung Fu has been a great asset to my training.
The balance is great and the movement is fast and combative.(at least in my style)I like karate but I don’t ever recall working on an Iron dummy and conditioning my body this way in karate.Don’t get me wrong,shorin ryu is very tough.
You should open your mind a little more.Theres alot of other stuff out there.
Don’t get mad, I’m just stating my point of view.
"Back to speed
I really don’t see how a kung fu technique can be called fast when a kickboxer can throw lightning fast punches at you before you can even think of a kung fu technique.
Just my point of view."
Form suggests a sensible order to connecting techniques. Practicing Form develops endurance. Repetition develops Speed. One cannot do 10,000 of the same cut incorrectly (possiblly a saying in Japan). A tenet of Kung-Fu seems to be to learn the Form then (way later), forget all the techniques. ~ I thought that it was a reference to better than second-nature. One retrains one’s movements so that the complex/involved Kung-Fu movements become natural coordination–You can do those movement eventually, not just as a reaction. But as a higher level of coordination.
"Even if you people don’t have to think of a technique, it’s still no way faster than a strait punch, many punches.
you truely think you can grab one of those punches with a kung fu technique/jointlock?Get real. "
Karate people get good griping from at least holding their hands in fists so much. Hands are-up. A straight punch could be covered. One would have to have a very strong grip and is faster and has sharp perceptions. But these are trainable. Kung-Fu allows for doing such things.
“But, the question is do you really think you will have that chanch when 12 punches were already thrown at your head and the fights over before you even decide what to do?”
The theory is more that as a Kung-Fu practitioner one would be aware of impending threat and anticipate the punch(es). Kung-Fu incorporates avoidance and yielding and beating the adversary to the puch (speed) (effectiveness to hurt is also present from the Kung-Fu practitioner (when far enough along)).
"in closeing
You simply can’t be in U.F.C. or N.H.B. Because kung fu is just not practical
In the spur of the moment you can’t depend on kung fu,you need something more direct "
I wonder what you have in your thinking as what makes-up Kung-Fu. What Kung-Fu practitioners look like to you, when they do Kung-Fu?
“your not going to CATCH a dammm punch,simple as that.
If they could do all those techniques you would see it more in reality fighting.and the reason they don’t fight in U.F.C,Well don’t give me that, “because of honor of the style B.S.” It’s really because it just wouldn’t work.”
Deflecting is better than catching. Chin-Na happens at the joint. Chin-na might deflect then lean-in or step-in during the punch and Chin-na the shoulder or the elbow. The Kung-Fu person is not restricted to using the hands to execute Chin-na on those strong hard Japanese Karate punches that seem nearly locked-out.
Japanese Karate punch goes in, the other side of the body punch is going out. Mai-ai (?)–distance-timing. This is used in Taijitsu and theoretically Kenjitsu and is an integral part of at least a few Japanese Martial Arts. If not every interaction that has a physical component in this multiverse. In at least, Taijitsu and Kenjitsu of Japnese Martial Arts, there is something called, intent.
Perhaps The Chinese Kung-Fu practitioner has developed to sense Intent and can read the distance and timing of one of your Jaspanese strong hard punches in the barrage-ish of punches (12~ intended punches), and could start to be where it seems to be going, before it retracts or when it’s empty (at least a Taijitsu concept, perhaps). The Chinese Kung-Fu practitioner, anticipating correctly might have a palm anticipatorily closng on a punch that misses its mark because of yielding or absorbing.
In order for something to be going in one direction, then go along the same line in the opposite direction, its velocity approaches zero. So (needle-and-thread), no matter how fast a punch might be, there is a point at which the punch is virtually still. And perhaps you, one-called, Tinman, can concede that a still thing can be perceiveablly grabable. And a grab in motion (torque primer) hapening, beats an extended arm standing still. ~
Kung-Fu is for doing livelyhood work better and raising a family. Being a kind person. Respectful of Life. It is understanding to be Happy and live and be a part of Life. Beating people-up/Showing off-for the world/making money (there are So! many different ways) by hurting, seems trivial perhaps. And not worth while.
Some don’t feel a need to prove themselves. Self-confidence and being happy with one’s Self. This is perhaps the reason for Kung-Fu. That there are different ways people go about this, or that there are many applications, oh, well! 
Whatever whatever. Kung-Fu Can be used in all sorts of fighting, but Kung-Fu; however, applied is for improved living.
Some might say perhaps some-such, very whatever very good.
A few points
-I think bjj is cool
-I occassionally watch UFC, as well as sanshou footage, any of them, really, its nice to see fighters working their arts, be they eclectic arts or not.
-I really don’t care about this argument, although it does evoke thought on our styles, and I suppose make us always assess how we train.
AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST
-When NHB fighters start beating kung fu guys in chainwhip fights, maybe I’ll consider learning their styles, but until then, I’m sticking with kung fu. Our arts are just as realistic, and are a different type art than bjj. BJJ is heavily influenced by the japanese in that it is a focused art, working the ground, whereas kung fu styles are often geared towards a broader range of scenarios. This doesn’t make one better than the other, it just means they have a different focus. If the logic is to be victories=quality, kenjutsu guys with live steel will kill us all, so we all need to study kenjutsu, or, better yet, nuclear fu, which is superior.
Braden
Well I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on those 2 points. I am trying to see your viewpoint but I just can’t seem to budge on the glove issue. When you say that the “effect” is reduced when you tape your fists and wear grappling gloves what do you mean. The only thing I can think of off hand are cuts and abbrasions caused by the knuckles. If your talking about force, i’d definately disagree with you.
Archangel. OK, glove one hand, and not the other. Rest both on your face, so that the middle knuckle presses into the cheekbone - fingers pointing “down” in a fist.
Now - punch yourself in the face 5 times with each, alternating. Any power, as long as its equal.
Which hurts more? That’s right the ungloved one.
Now you can talk about how superficial power does not knock someone out blah de blah… but shock the ungloved hand dishes out more pain. It is more effective at breaking ****.
And properly conditioned will not break.
Paul,
I have never stated that MMA victories have validated what I am doing (please don’t put words in my mouth). The only things that UFC/PRIDE/IVC etc. can provide are good verifiable examples of some theories. Nothing more.
Well to answer your questions on my background; I’m starting to box again; Muay Thai was just too hard on the body. I find that it compliments my wrestling background really nicely
Delicate Sound,
The pain that is felt with a bare knuckle punch is greater than wrapped/tapped and glove hand, I agree but that is not what’s being debated here; we are discussing effectiveness. A wrapped/tapped hand is heavier than a bare fist and harder (it really feels like cement). I’m sure you’ve taken Physics before:
F=MA
With the glove on it has a greater surface area and will deliver a greater concussion force than a bare hand. You ask any boxer, muay thai, savate, San Shou fighter what they’d rather get hit with. I’ll bet you they’d choose the bare hand rather than the wrapped/taped hand with a grappling glove.
AA - “Well I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on those 2 points.”
What’s the other point - other than the glove stuff?
“A wrapped/tapped hand is heavier than a bare fist and harder (it really feels like cement).”
I’m not sure how you can claim taping hands adds pounds to their weight. I imagine you mean, it feels to you as if one had added pounds to their hands when they tape them, in which case I am in no position to argue about your subjective experience.
“F=MA”
I assume you use this to indicate the increase in force one will find in increasing the mass but maintaining the acceleration of a body. In terms of the model, the increase in force of putting on a glove and tape. To which I would respond: first, that the weight is neglible, which is to say, magnitudes smaller than the baseline. Second, that any increase in weight will result in a decrease in acceleration given the same input (ie. muscular movement). Look up equations for energy (rather than force, which is less appropriate) to determine the relative contribution of acceleration to determine the effect (of course, this if you maintain that the mass difference ISN’T negligible). And thirdly, that beyond changing mass and acceleration, taping/padding changes the KINETICS of the interaction in more subtle ways. Specifically that destruction potential of a transmission of energy is inversely propotional to the time it takes for the energy to transmit. This effect is very strong. Padding something specifically makes energy transmit slower (by introducing a high resilience surface in between the two bodies in question - which takes up time in deforming before energy can be transmitted… and of course this deformation also “costs” energy itself).
“With the glove on it has a greater surface area and will deliver a greater concussion force”
Which is not indicated by the formula you gave, if that is what you meant to imply.
However, it is also incorrect, adding surface area does not generate more force. For instance, imagine two bodies of equal volume and mass travelling with equal speed through a gravitationless vacuum; A and B. B has twice the surface area of A. From these facts alone, we can NOT conclude B has more kinetic energy. You might argue that if they were not in a vacuum, that friction due to air resistance on B would be twice that of A; ie. on a certain surface, B is associated with more force due to more surface area. However, this would be an error of logic. Their movement in the first place would be due to an input of energy Y. If B is associated with more force due to it’s surface area, it would require a proportionally larger Y to achieve the same kinetic energy state as A. Which is a thorough way of saying: surface area doesn’t generate more force, when it seems to be doing this, it is due entirely to a hidden variable: the input of a larger energy in the first place. With respect to our model, the gloves on your hands don’t generate energy of their own.
Moreover, the conclusion to be drawn from any discussion of surface area in our model would be the opposite of what you have drawn. If body A has the ability to transmit kinetic energy X to body B, the effect of this transfer will be inversely proportional to the surface area over which it occurs. For instance, if body B is required to absorb X over one square inch, it will have a greater effect than over forty square inches. It has to do with body B’s resilience: it’s ability to adapt within the constraints of it’s normal structure to incoming force by normal-range deformation and movement (as opposed to damage to it’s structure). With more surface area, there is simply more “stuff” of B in order to be resiliant. This is the exact mechanism for sharpness, and for the vulnerability of small isolated bodies, such as teeth and small bones. You might conclude anecdotally that a hammer has a different sort of ‘damage’ potential than a knife. However, the important thing to remember to avoid this conclusion is again that the hammer has more energy in the first place (due to it’s increased weight), and it is from this that it’s damage potential comes. Of course, taping and gloving adds weight, but not pounds as you assert. Although in another way, the hammer strike’s kinetics are different: something like a knife’s damage potential could be so high that it damages the body it contacts very quickly, whereas with a hammer strike, the tissue it strikes has “time” to pass some of the energy onto adjacent tissues for more wide-spread resilience (the idea behind a bullet proof vest - or the difference between being hit in the arm with a small and high caliber/velocity round; the former will knock you back, the latter will rip your arm off). However, this line of reasoning isn’t appropriate for our model, as neither glove nor ungloved conditions change surface area conditions as dramatically as knife vs. hammer.
Now, I don’t really like physical modelling of strikes, because it’s entirely inadequate. But you started. 
And I tried to keep things in terms of general principles so it would have meaning.
“You ask any boxer, muay thai, savate, San Shou fighter what they’d rather get hit with.”
Maybe because they’re used to being hit with less force by ungloved/untaped hands and/or by people who train/are used to striking with gloved/taped rather than ungloves/untaped hands.
However, if you believe your line of reasoning, what would you think of this:
I show up at your house with a pair of identical aluminum bats and a spool of “less than an inch” thick medium-density foam. We cover one of the bats with the foam and give it to you. Then we take turns hitting each other with the bats.
All that said… with respect to my argument, I do not need to defend a particularly strong position. I never claimed that the situation in general relatively impairs striking-oriented fighters, only that (contrary to what you asserted) that it did not relatively benefit them. So really I’m defending a position stronger than the one that needs to stand for my argument.
In other words, I’ll gladly admit that the situation presents striking-oriented fighters certain advantages, just as it creates certain disadvantages. And the same for grappling-oriented fighters.
As a general, but I think highly related, comment, one of the downsides of obtaining your striking training/knowledge from sports-based striking-arts is that you will have little to no exposure to tools that one WOULD use to maximize your ability to strike various parts of your opponent’s body with bare hands. In a way, it’s not surprising that someone whose exposure is limited in this fashion would hold strong views that padding of the hands benefits the striker.
Braden
LOL, you’ve been debating with Merry Prankster too ong… Here we go.
“What’s the other point - other than the glove stuff?”
The other point was about the soft padded mats, we can discuss that too if you like.
“I’m not sure how you can claim taping hands adds pounds to their weight. I imagine you mean, it feels to you as if one had added pounds to their hands when they tape them, in which case I am in no position to argue about your subjective experience.”
It’s not only mass thats added to your fist, wrapping the hands and then taping them will greatly strengthen the hands structure and foundation. Making them feel DENSER (better word) and alot more solid. If you look the structure of the hand, it was not designed for great impact. The knuckles are only held together by cartlidge wich easily seperate, break and dissipate energy. When the hand hits the skull you’ll agree that an equal force is reacted back to the hand. Alot of the energy will be dissipated through the seperation and compression of the knuckles. If the hand is reinforced, you will have no compression or seperation and the hand will more likely go through the target.
“first, that the weight is neglible, which is to say, magnitudes smaller than the baseline. Second, that any increase in weight will result in a decrease in acceleration given the same input (ie. muscular movement”
I disagree the weight is not neglible. The mass of a typical hand is about 1-3 kg the mass of wraps + tape + grappling glove is about maybe half a kilogram. A 25% increase in mass is not neglible. What is negligible is the decrease in acceleration, in my experience of course; They are not propotional.
“However, it is also incorrect, adding surface area does not generate more force”
I stated that more surface area along with mass (sorry I left that out) creates more CONCUSSION force - rattling the brain.
“I show up at your house with a pair of identical aluminum bats and a spool of “less than an inch” thick medium-density foam. We cover one of the bats with the foam and give it to you. Then we take turns hitting each other with the bats.”
LOL Braden, this model is extremely flawed. Lets first take the two objects being impacted. The fist and the baseball bat are completely different in terms of design and impact absorbtion. The hand is made up of several smaller objects held together by cartlidge. The baseball bat is a single solid object, hardly comparable.
“In a way, it’s not surprising that someone whose exposure is limited in this fashion would hold strong views that padding of the hands benefits the striker.”
First of all it’s not just padding, it’s reinforcing and thickening of the hand as well. And please Braden don’t patronize me.
Re: Royal Dragon
Originally posted by Archangel
[B]If you truly want an event thats closer to the original UFC there’s IVC in Brazil, it has only 2 rules, no biting or eye attacks; The event is dominated by primarily grapplers with not that many traditionalists doing well. There’s also Pride Japan which is alot closer to the original UFC, it has the biggest paycheck and still no traditionalists.
So there… [/B]
Why do you keep reffering to Brazil? Of course Vale Tudo and tournaments in Brazil are going to be dominated by Brazillian grapplers. That’s the native fighting system of the country (ever Gracie modified traditional Judo/Japanese Jiu Jitsu). I asked some CMA posters from Brazil (even ask Xebsball) and they say they have no knowledge of real Gong Fu competing in Brazilian tournaments, or much of real Gong Fu in Brazil anyways. Same thing in U.S.A. If you want to test skill of real Gong Fu and fight them go to Taiwan or old Hong Kong.
"LOL, you’ve been debating with Merry Prankster too ong… "
Heh. I just like to disagree. ;p
“The other point was about the soft padded mats, we can discuss that too if you like.”
I’m not sure what point that is. Maybe you misread my post. I was quoting things Ryu said and then replying to them, as I incorrectly thought they were directed at me. A few posts ago you agreed with everything I said regarding mats.
“wrapping the hands and then taping them will greatly strengthen the hands structure and foundation”
That’s what I assumed you meant, like I said. I don’t have a problem with that.
“If you look the structure of the hand, it was not designed for great impact.”
Well, you can use your hand alot of different ways. Certainly if we’re talking about curling all our fingers and tensing them up then slamming them into something like the skull; yes that seems like a silly idea.
“The mass of a typical hand is about 1-3 kg”
Sure. But surely the people we’re talking about are using a good portion of the rest of their mass when they strike.
“I stated that more surface area along with mass (sorry I left that out) creates more CONCUSSION force - rattling the brain.”
More mass certainly does.
“this model is extremely flawed”
It was modelled to address the idea that that you put forth that adding the wrapping increased power. As a model of this, it is flawed, but not extremely. If you’re saying now (or meant to say all along) that the wrapping acts like “artificial conditioning” to permit people to strike with full force without fear of damaging themselves, then yes it’s a useless model. I’d even agree with that assertion (and never suggested otherwise).
“And please Braden don’t patronize me.”
Dude, I wasn’t patronizing you and I am honestly sorry that you got that impression. I understand my writing can seem confrontational. Bad habit from training in philosophy and science I guess. My intention is only to address points that are made one by one, provide examples, and try to anticipate possible responses and reply to them before they are made. I haven’t the tiniest bit of nefarious intent towards anyone here (frankly if we’re going to get all mushy, I think you’re alot more fun to talk to than almost everyone else - evidenced by how my only post in a month is a reply to you). I just come here (like most people, I imagine) to get a mental breather periodically from work, and talk **** with whoever happens to be around. Appearances to the contrary maybe, I’m about as un-“take things personally” as you can get.
To reiterate - I was responding to the idea that padding itself increases power. (That is, after all, what you said). If you MEANT padding allows someone to strike with full power, then obviously my response isn’t particularly appropriate. But this gets right back to the comment about training (see, it was made for a point, not as an insult ). If people train constantly to strike with gloves on, it’s not a big surprise their tools, targets, and methodology are based around the idea of having gloves on. If your training is glove-based, and you then look at gloveless, applications issues like this are going to come up.
There are plenty of ways to strike the head full force using bare hands with minimal risk of damaging yourself. The older army close quarter combatatives manual that was posted here awhile ago (and, curiously enough, criticized by many for being outdated by boxing methods) contains several great examples.
Ugh,
I always drag myself into these.
You know… I haven’t ever seen anybody tape their hands in MMA up to that almost cast like effect you see in boxing or thai-boxing. I’d have to say this is because of the necessity of grabbing.
So the structure of the fist still has to be correct. In fact, I was noticing that the other day. I got new fight gloves and I was lightly playing with them, and I had to be very concious of striking properly or I’d hurt my fingers. As I got more confident in my new gloves I went at it a bit harder. It was very satisfying
MMA fight gloves really don’t protect the structure of the hand at all. You take the palm bar out of the darn things so you can grapple properly, so if you don’t strike correctly (see above) it can be unpleasant at best, and handbreaking at worst. The padding is minimal–enough to stop abrasions, not enough to lessen the impact.
I found that the best fist structure wasn’t what I thought it was, and had to “fix it.” I realized it’s because from boxing I was used to the palm bar that forces the hand to be in the right position.
In fact, I’d say that fight gloves probably DO protect the hand from breaking “somewhat,” meaning that if you don’t have proper fist structure it’s still going to break on a full on shot, but I bet when you land a glancing shot at a funny angle, THAT’S when their protective value comes in (pure speculation–it just seems to me that the wierd angles take away some of the protective value of the structure of the fist,) and they protect from abrasion and cuts a lot.
I don’t think this really backs anybody’s points up. These were just my observations from playing around with my new toys.
Unmatchable-
What Archangel is trying to say is that if rules are truly the biggest issue about a Kung Fu man not being able to compete because they are too restrictive to allow the full complement of techniques, then Brazil and Russia offer very nice alternatives.
In other words, if a KF guy REALLY wants to compete in these events, then rules are not an excuse–you can find venues that are practically rule-less (no eyegouging, no biting–that’s IT), and still preserves the “challenge to find out who’s better,” format–unlike a streetfight which might involve other people.
Braden
LOL, I was just busting your balls a little with that last comment, I know that you weren’t trying to patronize me. Anywhoo
“It was modelled to address the idea that that you put forth that adding the wrapping increased power”
“To reiterate - I was responding to the idea that padding itself increases power. (That is, after all, what you said).”
Braden I looked back at my posts (just to make sure), I never once said that wrapping the hands increase power. I said that it increases FORCE. At the moment of impact an unprotected hand will absorb a lot of energy and compress or even break. A reinforced hand will not, all of the energy being directed will be transfered to the skull.
So looking back at my statement, i guess that it too is slightly incorrect. Let me rephrase, a taped hand with a grappling glove will have a greater mass and a reinforced structure; it will allow the force generated by the punch to be transfered to the target more effeciently than an empty hand.
There I hope that made sense
hmm… if by “Seriously, do you really think joint locks and kung fu movements are fast?” you ACTUALLY mean “tinman is kind of an arsehead”, then yes i really think that.
stuart b.
Lets take a small example. Lets say someone throws a right cross to my head. The simplest lock I could do would to move my weight to the right, dodge the cross as it comes in and take hold of the wrist, twist it so that it is facing palm up, and then drop down and make sure the wrist comes with me. This would cause, if nothing else, a loss of balance, which would allow a quick, and easy, strike of some sort. Of course there is always the what ifs or I would do this. I could get hit in the head as I droped them down, but I’ll tell ya what, that’s nothing compared to the situation I have them in. I can easily strike them or manipulate their joints and cause them to move to numerous positions. What makes me think that I can do this? Quite simple really. The fact that I’ve practiced it at life like speeds over and over. It’s second nature. Just like with any other art. It’s not so much the technique that makes them good, but how much and how well they have practiced it.
Blah, blah, blah…
One more boring post, please! Same ole’ same ole! Back of the neck speaking is getting old- YAWWWWWWWWWN, snort, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
:o Does this stupid troll thread actually merit 80 posts?