Seriously, do you really think joint locks and kung fu movements are fast?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Feed the Troll

You simply can’t be in U.F.C. or N.H.B. Because kung fu is just not practical
In the spur of the moment you can’t depend on kung fu,you need something more direct

Reply]
UFC turned to C R A P before the Kung Fu world really even noticed it, so your not going to see us there. We have Kuo Shou and San Shou. If the MMA’s were so tough, why don’t you see them there??

Also, Kung Fu IS direct. we have fast short attacks too, but we also have great setups, locks, throws, dislocations and breaks too. Can we catch a Jab, YES, I’ve done it. Infact Wednessday, I was working with a Kempo guy I know on just that very thing.

If you engage the opponent in sticky hands, you are already in contact with the jabbing hand, and any agresive movment it makes can easily be nullified the instant it is initiated.

Kick boxers don’t even have sticky hands, so they see jabs as this super fast unstopable thing that one should be afraid of because they must rely on hand eye cordination, which is quite slow by comparisen.

Is a grappeler afraid of a Jab?? I don’t think so. Why you ask? Because of all the time they spend engaed in close quarters contact builds their sensitivity pretty much the same way as “Sticky Hands” does for us. Kick Boxers don’t even think about that stuff.

22

alright Kung Lek
you have a point and well taken.
But, the question is do you really think you will have that chanch when 12 punches were already thrown at your head and the fights over before you even decide what to do?

23

There is only a wall of will holding you back. Yours or your opponents. If the kickboxer has more hunger to win, then he just might. If the Kung fu fighter has the hunger to win or the need to prevail then he will win.

The Kung fu fighter is likely not just going to stand there with his hands at his side withstanding the punches of the other fighter.

He will likely be looking for his openings as well. But once inside with the ability to grab, hold and dump the kickboxer, what will the kickboxer do to change the situation in his favour? Keep hitting? How do you keep hitting when your legs are being taken out from under you, you have an arm pinned and inside uppercuts are raining on ya?

it really depends on the fighters in the end. THe one with more tools trained effectively should by the odds win the match. The one who has studied the opponent and worked out counters to the favourite moves of the opponent will have even more of an advantage.

To many variables in a realistic fight to say “who” will win. But usually the bigger stick defeats the twig.

peace

24

Scarecrow -

Do you really have 12 hands? That’s the only way I can think of for you to throw 12 jabs at once.

Anyway, the way it would work is like this: A jab is thrown, and intercepted by it’s target. Then the target keeps his hand on the jabbing hand as it returns to the ‘chambered’ position. This is the ‘sticking’ that has been referred to throughout the thread. Once a hand is ‘stuck’ in this fashion, it becomes much more difficult to throw a punch with it, because the target of the punch is already in contact and can use that contact to alter the powerr or direction of any movement the ‘jabbing’ hand makes. It is at THIS point, NOT when the first jab is thrown that qinna (joint lock) techniques come into play.

But what about my other hand? You may ask. Well, what about it? I still have a hand free, too, and can use it to counterpunch while my sticking hand jams up your lead hand, or to deflect/stick to punches your other hand may throw.

This silly business of 12 punches is just a way of saying ‘oo, I’m so fast you have no chance,’ but that’s a matter of personal attributes, not stylistic attributes and thus has no place in this discussion.

25

Chang Style

I’ve actually been intiating contact first. As soon as their Gaurd goes up, I use a Bagua step to circle to the outside, and closer to the opponenet. This allows my lead hand to engage the lead hand of the Kick Boxer (Kempo buddy in this case) BEFORE he even attempts anything. I’m to his outside, with my center line facing his shoulder, so “I” have full use of both arms, but he has one already tied up by my single palm change postion, and the other is held out of range due to the fact that my body position is to the outside of him. Because of my use of “Sticking”, when he tries to turn to face me, I feel it in his arm first before I see it, and I just Bagua walk around thus remaining one step ahead of him wile raining down attacks with my free hand, or jamming and Chin Na"ing" him with my “Sticking” hand. We won’t even get into the really cool ways you can take his structure away from that postion, and Kick Boxer types are SOOOOOOO suseptable to that kind of footwork and positioning it ain’t even funny.

In all honesty, it’s about all I do when I fight now, as it is so effective.

26

Thanks Xebs but Ralek is a no show. Looks like Ralek is afraid of the awesome power of Tinman’s karaady.

Anyways Tinman. Your such a fool . Wether your trolling or not you’re really showing how stupid you are. One of my close friends is a Muay Thai boxer, not the sissy kickboxing stuff with gloves and when we sparred he said I was too fast. So nah. Believe it or not I don’t care. I’m just waiting for Ralek to come here and lay the smack down on you.

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Tinman–“Holy bright lights! Look up there! The Troll Signal!”
Ralek–“Quick Tinman!! To the Trollmobile!”

Royal–KF has Kuo Shou and San Shou huh? And Pride and the UFC are crap…OOooooook. Normally, you have really good comments, but this time, I do believe you are talking out of your sphincter.

Has it occurred to you that both of these venues are basically MMA events without the groundwork and submissions (Including standing ones, mind you)? Never mind that sacrifice throws such as ippon seoi nage–perfectly legit throws–are not scored because your knees hit the ground first. Are you even allowed to get behind your opponent and beat on him in a “shou” event? Or is it like boxing or kickboxing where if that happens, they break it up (assuming that a back arch throw isn’t immediately on the way)?

Are you just grumpy that there is groundwork in MMA events or not like the fighters, or what?

If it’s a rules issue, the irony is that the rules of San Shou and Kuo Shou are more restrictive than MMA events.

Both sets are excellent venues, but to argue one is crap and the other isn’t…I’m not sure how your assumptions play out here…

28

I think my argument is…

They are both C R A P, so why would we go from our circutes whith restrictive rules, to another with restrictive rules geared for ground fighting wrestlers?? Our Idea of Ground fighting, is the throw the guy, and come crashing down on his rips with one of our knees after he’s been knocked unconcios by landing on his head. I don’t think we can do that in our circutes, we can’t do that in the UFC (because we are not striking wile WE are on the ground too), so why bother moving out of our element??

The UFC was good when it was
No biteing,
No Fish Hooking
And No Throat strikes (?is that right, been so long now)

As far as "I’ am concerned, the UFC turned to C R A P when they added all those rules and geared it for ground huggers. Now it’s no different than any other fight game.

29

Kung fu never in UFC?

I don’t think so.

UFC 6 and 7, Joel Sutton fought and won as an alternate…later he broke off from 8 step and left his winning streak with him.

Other fighters in 8 step have won in local NHB competitions.

BJJ takes out kickboxers by getting them in unfamiliar ranges, using positioning and techniques that they don’t know. We do the same, but on the ground and in close. The positioning is the stance work and footwork, like RD mentioned.

I agree with him on only needing the ba gua footwork after initially engaging them. You can also engage, mantis pull and close line their neck for a choke or throw while rotating around them ba gua like.

Even with pure striking, there are a lot of subtelties that they don’t know. Even thai kickboxers don’t know.

30

Royal Dragon

“They are both C R A P, so why would we go from our circutes whith restrictive rules, to another with restrictive rules geared for ground fighting wrestlers??”

Can you explain this more to me? How are MMA events geared toward ground grapplers when you can fight in any range you want.

Stacy,

Joel Sutton beat 2 inexperienced rookies in his alternate fights in the UFC. The reason he started losing was because the caliber of his opponents went up. If he didn’t cross train and just stuck to Mantis he wouldn’t have even won his first 2.

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Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
[B]Scarecrow -

Do you really have 12 hands? That’s the only way I can think of for you to throw 12 jabs at once.
. [/B]

Moral of the story : Don’t ever fight Vishnu of India.

32

Correct me if I’m wrong

But isn’t there a rule in the UFC that states if an opponent is on the ground, you must also be on the ground to hit him??

I remeber a guy in one of the UFC’s just lay down and wait for his opponent to lay down and wrestle him.

If it was NOT set up sepcifically for ground huggers, then the Kung Fu guy would be able to cage him and pound him in the head with out having to lay down and play the grapeller’s game.

THIS tells me they only want Ground Huggers.

Ever since I saw THAT one, I’ve been down on the UFC. It’s not what it’s made out to be anymore. If it ever goes back to the original 3 basic rules, I’ll give it some thought, but untill then I see no need to pay any attention to it when there are plenty of good Kou Shuo or San Shou fights to watch.

Am I wrong here?

33

Re: Correct me if I’m wrong

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Am I wrong here?

No. You are correct. And I’m a Judo guy.

34

Royal Dragon

No, you are allowed to kick your opponent while he’s down, not just when he’s on all 4’s. I admit this is a dumb rule but they were pressured by the sports commission. If the grappler is just laying there though, the striker can ask that he be stood back up which is a definate advantage to the striker. I think the rules are evenly distributed though. You have rounds which favors strikers, standups which favors strikers, taped fists with small gloves that favor strikers and a nice soft mat to land on that favors strikers (strikers would most likely be on the bottom of a takedown).

If you truly want an event thats closer to the original UFC there’s IVC in Brazil, it has only 2 rules, no biting or eye attacks; The event is dominated by primarily grapplers with not that many traditionalists doing well. There’s also Pride Japan which is alot closer to the original UFC, it has the biggest paycheck and still no traditionalists.

So there…

35

I have heard the IVC has a lot fewer rules, what are the paychecks like with that tourney and are any of them on tape to buy?

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OK, Cool

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Real fights are usually won by sucker punching from the encroachment. You’d all be better off learning about how people react in the encroachment, pushing matches, blindside attacks, etc.
Doesn’t matter what martial art you study, if you’re street stupid.

The tools to fight are grappling skills, punching skills, close-quarter skills.

Use them how you see fit.
These threads are boring even me.

Ryu

38

RD -

Thanks for pointing out that ‘sticking’ can be part of an aggressive strategy as well as a part of a reactive one. Of course, my post was intended to reply to the Scarecrow’s scenario of ‘how would you respond to a flurry of quick punches?’

39

“you are allowed to kick your opponent while he’s down, not just when he’s on all 4’s.”

This must be a new rule.

“If the grappler is just laying there though, the striker can ask that he be stood back up”

This must also be new. Or inconsistently enforced. I’m sure that anyone who has been watching them can think of a half dozen examples off hand of someone with a stronger ground game waiting in the guard for the standing person to come to them, while the standing person stares confusedly and then is warned to be more aggressive. There’s some good examples from Sak’s fights in another venue of what happens when this rule isn’t in place.

“which is a definate advantage to the striker.”

Interesting viewpoint. I’d say it’s more (assuming it’s being enforced now) to create even the slightest semblance of realism. A martial art which advocates lying on your back on the ground and waiting for someone to come to is of extremely limited worth outside the ring, even if you can consistently win in the ring with that strategy.

“You have rounds which favors strikers”

Or, again, realism. For example, it’s always amused me when BJJ proponents assert the realism of their arts in the same paragraph they talk about a certain 3 hour long (!?) match.

“standups which favors strikers”

Allready addressed.

“taped fists with small gloves that favor strikers”

Another interesting viewpoint. Padding strikes (ie. decreasing the power of strikes) favors strikers? Hrmm…

“a nice soft mat to land on that favors strikers”

And yet another interesting viewpoint. Decreasing the damage you take from rolling on the ground favors people who are trying not to do that? I wonder how quick people would pull mid-range guard or go for many of the popular guard and flying submissions if the back side of their head was near something hard, let alone curb-like.

Please don’t confuse any of this for a standup vs ground, striking vs grappling, or traditional vs modern argument. Simply commenting specifically on statements that were made.

40

MerryPrankster is correct in noting the absence of groundwork in koushu and sanshou; but only correct regarding sanshou in his comments concerning standing submission and positioning constraints.

For whatever it’s worth, regarding self-defense I agree completely with what Ryu said.