ok…in anticipation of the ft lauderdale san shou tournament, i’ve researched san shou a bit, found the official rules [on www.sanshou.com if these are incorrect, someone please tell me!]
after reviewing the rules etc, i have some questions that i hope someone can answer…
what type of footwork should i expect from the typical san shou fighter?
from the internet pics i have seen, it looks like mostly western kickboxing strikes and kicks…true or false?
are hammerfist strikes legal? probably not…but i thought i’d ask anyways.
how often are throws attempted?
what are the most common san shou throws?
i’ve seen one or two san shou fights on espn, but that’s it. so i’m pretty much clueless about what i’m up against as far as standards go. so if you can help me out…thanks!
footwork will come from a modified boxing stance. Look for strong side kicks, rear leg roundhouse to your legs and thighs and quick front kicks.
the striking is like kickboxing but the throws are much more like wrestling (single leg double leg and catch throws) and will require much more endurance than typical kickboxing.
Even if they are legal, the chances of you using it effectively would be slim to none.
Very often usually as soon as two fighters are close enough to clinch/shoot
The kicking and punching looks lick kick boxing as there as only so many ways to hit or kick someone especialy with boxing gloves on but what makes San Shou differant is that every time you throw a punch or a kick you have to worry about the other guy moveing in and throwing you.
Not sure on the hammer fist but my policy on vague rules is to do it till you are told to stop by the Ref (if you really think hammer fists will get in…I think that if your that close you should be worrying about throwing /being thrown).
depends on the type of guys fighting but you should expect lots of throws. I think my best throw rate was over 20 throws in 4 rounds.
Expect guys to shoot in under you and dump you. Also some hip throws.
The most important thing are to know the rules well BEFORE you go and train to the rules. I know it sounds dull but dont train to just thinking you will go in and knock tyhe guy out…know the rules know where your points are coming from and train to that.
(as I saw a san shou fight a few weeks ago where bith guys did not know that you got points awarded against you if you went off the lei tai. I heard one of the fighters who was standing right behind me waiting to fight say “what so i get points for going out of the area”. His oponent never worked it out and spent most of the fight backing off the lei tai).
The second most important thing is to get really fit. I mean really fit as 2 rounds of full on kicking and throwing takes it out of you and then you still need to keep it up for the last round. So lots of hill sprints, bag work ect.
Ok last think and it dose not apply to every one but most of the san shou i have fought and watched one guy becomes dominant very early on by being very agresive…make sure its you.
it doesn’t seem like many strikes are prohibited, except elbows and knees… thanks for that sanda/san shou site, also…
as for being fit, i start training tonite, in about 20 min
i’m sure i’ll have more questions after i train…
oh yeah…
how hard is it to grab with 14 oz. gloves on? i don’t own any [yet] so i haven’t been able to find out.
it seems most of the throws are based on large grabs ie, arms around a limb or waist, arm around the neck…
is joint locking to throw allowed also? i don’t see any mention of it in the official rules posted by http://www.sanshou.com …
Dont worry about joint locks in san shou. Joint locks are one of my things and I cant get then off in san shou with the gloves on. But I can get throws off at will against most guys…the only thing stoping my puting more throws in is my own endurance during most fights. So really work on the stamina and play an agresive game. Great way to get fit is running up hills at full pelt till you want to throw up…then jog back down again…repeat. Look for about 150-200 meters of steap hill.
yeah most strikes are legal, but the gear, rules, and situation generally make the basics the most effective strikes. thats why it might look sort of like kickboxing, because most cma styles have these strikes as fundamentals, and they are what work best in san shou with those rules and gear and someone trying to knock you out. westen kickboxing doesnt allow kicking to the legs, which is common in san shou and they generally favor different kicks…they seem to execute differnet cause they have more limited rules don’t have to worry about things such as having their kick caught and being thrown or leg counter kicks. throws are common but it depends on the fighter.
i’m sure a hammerfist would be legal (maybe not to the back of the head, but otherwise) i’ve seen it used before a while back (at the '96 tigerbalm tourny in arizona), but i think it would be very hard to use effectively against a good fighter.
the fact that there are throws and takedowns make it very different and more strenueous than kickboxing and the strategies are different, its a different animal. footwork is conservative by ‘traditional’ standards, because if you are too slow, open or overcommit you will be hit or thrown. i think it is less linear than kickboxing, there is circular and diagonal breaks, and all the footwork that goes along with executing a throw or rooting to prevent one.
start training with the gloves and other gear on soon to get used to it. you can pull off a lot with the gloves on. you can’t attack directly against a joint, but you still can use the basic leverage for a takedown (example, against a kick or shoulder throw)
train your cardio big time. its more exhausting than any other thing i can think of.
good luck!
btw, congrads for finally getting the pic of that fat chick out of your signature.
Hammer fists work very well. Three punches are worth as much as a throw, if you clinch, uppercut and knock him out.
Do whatever until the ref stops you, he probably wont know whats going on being wushu tai chi judge.
knee to the nuts to uproot. Sweep, but throwing requires too much strength for 2 lousy points if you both go down. Using techniques the judges don’t understand will also not gain you points. A tai chi throw may be labeled a “slip” on the part of the other fighter.
Low sweeps are often void if your hands touch the ground.
San shou is not kung fu, if you do kung fu you will do something unorthadox. Just letting you know.
You can drop to your kees to avoid an inevitable throw.
Don’t grab the head or neck, for some reason thats illegal.
You can arm bar throw.
Endurance in san shou is a big joke. If you are in kung fu shape, you will be more than ok…go all out balls to the wall, don’t care for defence as much as racking up the points and hitting the other guy, the fights usually only go a couple or rounds. A huge stop kick and a flurry followed by a chop sweep is the recipe for winning.
i’m planing on competing at taiji legacy in july, and i just had a look and the rules and half the stuff my coach said i could do i are illegal. He said would could elbow and knee (although i knew we really couldn’t, **** american **** rags), he also said that we could fall with an opponet as in on top of them, but it’s like a penalty. Oh and we don’t get points for hiting some we have a hold of or something. there was also a rule that said something like we couldn’t throw an opponent head over heels, but i didn’t really understand what it said.
My coach Is from tiwain (sp?) he was like a national champion and won large compitetions in china, but i think that the *****fied international rules, which is what we use in the us, are different.
as far as i know you can still hit with any part of your glove. As far as throws most of ours are leg catches with leg sweep, and hip throws, with a few doubble leg shoot like take downs.
would someone please give me a spell check!
i really wouldn’t want to get kneed or elbowed anyway. :eek:
If the fight is going to involve points you better darn well not forget throws!!!
Im slowly learning Shan Shao refereeing and have been fighting a fair wack that way as part of the training.
In points
desisive strikes with the hands are single point scorers.
desisive kicks to the body(or head) are double point scorers.
throws where ‘that dont involve you both going down and staying down’ are three point moves.
The only other three point move is a spinning hooking kick.
If you want some honest advice, like it or not this is rules based and point based fighting. Even with knockouts allowed a fighter MUST be scorring and scorring well.
Work on getting kicks and throws in combinations but be aware if you hit well with one you may be stopped and point awarded.
You must be able to flow freely through the ranges of combat and be prepared for countering throws and NOT by simply going to ground with your opponent. IE sprawling is a great move in real combat but gets no one anywhere in Shan Shao, it simply stops the fight.
Work on quick clean hip throws and also work on throws which involve grabbing your oppoenents legs as they kick.
The best stratargy ive found is to play range games, find your opponents weak range and work the hell out of it. Still you MUST attack reguarly and you MUST mix up your moves or else you will be punished by a half decent fighter.
Not sure on all competions but i have the actual rule book here and can tell you particualrs if you like
On throws
For a throw to score you must either remain standing or you must be back on your feet within ONE second.
This makes any kind of ground grappeling compleatly useless in San Shao. You CAN use ‘sacrifice’ throws but you MUST be back on your feet quickly and as such there not really an advised tactic.
san shou IS kung fu; it is a competition format for training and competing with kung fu. sure it doesnt encompase everything, but it is an unarmed combat training simulation that kung fu has developed. the fighting techniques are generally what works in the ring (or lei tei) with those rules and equiptment. adopting something completely unorthodox might get you knocked out real quick (or who knows, maybe you could bring in some different stuff that could work for you), step in and find out.
consecutive punches ARE legal now…at least in the American rules that are being used now…rules may vary slightly for different tournys or organizations.
you get 3 points for a clean throw where you remain standing, and (1 or 2?) if you both go down but you land in the controlling, dominant position. If its sloppy & no dominant technique was executed, than no points are awarded.
if you drop to your knees i think thats a points deduct. if you sprawl it is not and that can be used to avoid a throw. if it turns into a clinch then it will be broken up, no points deducted.
the refs are usually very competent and experienced in traditional (i’m starting to really hate using that word as it means nothing) cma as well as san shou. assuming that they won’t know whats going on or not know what theyre seeing is complete nonsense.
and cardio is a big deal. most of stacey’s advice would get you killed in the ring… :rolleyes:
there are some other guys here that know a lot more about san shou fighting, i just put in my two cents to try to help you out.
Ok a fast test to see if your fit enough for San Shou.
Spar for 2 mins hard with a guy who is constantly attacking you trying throws etc. If you go down of get split up then stop the timer so you are doing 2 whole mins of sparring. Do not hold back during this time.
Ok now have a 1 min rest then repeat with a fresh partner.
have another 1 min rest and repeat.
If during the last round you are haveing trouble being offensive or even keeping a guard up then you need to work the stamina much harder (note that i said stamina and not cardio).
Mutant is right, Stacy’s advice is mostly wrong, sorry Stacy.
Throws are scored as three points for a Sweep type throw, two for a wrestle throw if you stay on your feet and one if you go down but land second. I’ve competed in the US for 8 years and have refereed or judged about 400 fights since '99 so I kind of know what the rules in the US are like. There are some differences but mostly it is the same. There are only about 8 qualified referees in the US and they do most of the bouts.
Liokault, good point saying ‘stamina’ vs ‘cardio’ probably much better overall description taking muscle fatigue, etc, into consideration.
your test sounds good, but still doesnt take into account the addrenalin dump that comes from facing a skilled stranger, who will not be as conscious for your safety as your training partners hopefully will be. being able to go three rounds with a training partner might be enough to get you through it, but wouldnt nessesarily be enough to enable you to excel stamina wise. and you may have to fight multiple times…
We like to train for double the rounds you will likely face. So our fighters train 3-6 three minute rounds in a row when we get close to an event. I would say during a normal sparring session people are getting from 8 -16 rounds in depending on skill level, number of people and upcoming events.
Mutant will get to experience this in a month or so, and we can’t wait.
Also I fight san shou in the UK and by far the most tornaments only alow 1 fight a day. I think that sucks but I think its somthing to do with amater boxing rules.
The times I have fought more than once a day the stamina training I do really helps.
As I side note I have just seen an advert for a san shou tornament with a 1000 pound top prize (I dont seem to have a pound symbol on my pc but it must be $1300).
Its 16 hand picked fighters from all the enterances and it will be a knock out tornement with every one winning a fight after the second round getting good prize money. It means 4 fights for the last 2 guys and i think there will be no weight limit.
this is the first tornement of its type that I have heard of in the UK and sounds interesting.
ok…i’ve watched some of those fight clips and studied the rules a bit more. i’m starting to get a pretty good idea about what to expect and what to train [stamina and also technique-wise].
questions…
C.Striking opponentÕs head continuously to deliberately injure opponent
[from http://www.sanshou.com]
how can this rule be valid, in a combat sport? is there something i’m missing?
is this just to prevent people from whalloping the crap out of each other, ala the toughman competition etc?
are chopping type strikes legal?
if grabbing the head or neck are illegal, why are there people pulling off neck surrounding [headlock hip throws] throws in the pics i’ve seen?
almost done…has anyone seen hsing i style striking in san shou matches?
ok, as a side note…i’m going to stick to traditional striking techniques as much as possible [northern shaolin, maybe hsing i] and of course shuai chiao. i want the shuai chiao from hell when this tourney comes around. maybe i’ll post my workout routines when i get them set solid…
neptunesfall
I dont mean to rain on your parade but this comment struck me as something you may have figure out yourself the hard way.
“ok, as a side note…i’m going to stick to traditional striking techniques as much as possible [northern shaolin, maybe hsing i] and of course shuai chiao.”
You REALLY need to get some gloves training in, you will find they alter the game drasticaly. For a start they can be made to form a shield which becomes often more effective than blocking (watch boxers) secondly they mean MUCH less sensitivity in your grabs (less sinking and leaking bridges). They also alter your punches considerably depending a bit on your style.
For me i hate to say this but when i spar without gloves i use Bagua almost exclusively with a tiny amount of Hung Ga thrown in when i really wanna try and blow though in a hurry.
When i use gloves its back to basics for me:( ALL palm strikes are basicaly out and the most effective moves become basic boxing combined with a couple of sneaky shots.
Dont get me wrong you CAN get away with using traditional stuff in gloves but the sad fact is it totaly ruins the effectiveness.
A top example is one of my favortie tactics which is from Hung which is to punch punches. I try to uppercut the forearm on straits and hook them on uppercuts and there own hooks. This tactics works a charm in gloveless sparring and quickly makes my opponent think twise before waving his arms around aimlessly. In gloves these strikes simply dont hurt at all and with most opponents it only serves to make them more angry.
San Shao is rules based fighting and it comes at a cost, if you want to win then my advice is learn to play the game!
On how many fights per day…
According to the international rule book you can only fight a maximum of 2 fights per day.
The deal with constant head punching is to prevent headhunters, so as to keep the fight going more than one round. Its also to help to encourage people to kick. Basicaly you have to remember this is a specater sport. Its not a genuine test of ma skill in the strict sence, hence the rules are modified to keep it interesting for the spectators.
On the other side as my sifu is always proudly saying…
San Shao people dont die in the ring! This is something that cannot be said for nearly every other full contact sport in existence.
Im not aware of any fatalitys in San Shao competion, as far as full contact spectator sports go its actualy pretty well organised.
Still my biggest piece of advice at this stage would be get some glove fighting experience and prepare yourself for a nasty shock.
On the good side it does allow to be punched repeadly in the face and still come back for more (thanks paul).
Your Xing Yi elements can proberly be addapted to work but you may find your Northen Shaolin hand stuff next to useless.
Ps
Chops Backfists (unless there whole body driven) palm stikes, knife hands, hammer fists, ridge hands, Back hand uppercuts…
None of these hurt at ALL when you and your partner is wearing gloves, trust me ive tried using em all
Jon, there we a few fatalities in China from wheel kicks that hit the back of the head and broke the neck. Also there have been a few fatalities in Draka which is/was pro San Shou.
neptune, Jon is right about the glove vs. no glove thing.
Hello.
