I started some new training this week, I consider it a birthday present from my master, that really got me thinking … because it was so unique.
I look at where competant CMA is evolving to, and when I say competant, I mean willing to fight, and you have to say it’s San Da.
But when I see San Da I don’t see the differences, such as, where the twisting of Ba Gua, or where’s the trapping of Wing Chun, the element strikes of Hung Gar, etc., etc.. etc.
So are we in danger of losing the Chineseness that made these Chinese arts unique?
Were they just not good enough to carry over into present time? Or have we lost them? Or losing them?
IMO, it’s conditional: If CMA wants to maintain as fighting arts, they have to have a format that allows people to fight that way safely. This also implies there has to be methods that allow people to train safely and effectively as well. This is why CMA has San Da.
Another thing to think about is something that language goes through, analogical leveling. Things that are actually cumbersome become “leveled”, as there are easier, quicker, and more effective ways of communicating ideas. There are better and quicker ways of training certain things now than there were 150 or 1500 years ago.
No one practices them the way they should be practiced. Wingchun guys chisau and call it sparring. Bagua guys walk holes into the ground. Taichi guys get all sweaty pushing and shoving on each other. It’s ridiculous what passes for fight training now a days.
San Shou is cool. But I have seen a few instances now where it’s called san shou but it’s all co-opted Muay Thai stuff. wtf???
San Da is style specific imo. Although, this term has been used and pulled into the San shou thing.
San Da is style specific free fighting. So Hung Ga san da should look different than North Shaolin San Da and so on.
But if it gets dragged into the sportive combat arena then it will have to conform to a rule set and so on hence it becomes…well, kickboxing with throws.
I think Ross likes calling it San Da so he doesn’t get mixed up with the wushu aspect of free fighting. …or maybe that’s what he always called it, what say you Ross? Why did you use San Da instead of San Shou?
In summary, it is NOT hurting Chinese martial arts to get themselves out there and get to banging. Where else you gonna learn how to actually fight? You gonna meditate on it a la Hero? bzzzzt wrong answer.
I’m just saying, things like Ba Gua’s twisting really generates power, but will we lose this … to where you have guys doing that training but not fighting, not understanding it.
Also, I think there is the potential for chop suey, if it hasn’t happened already. I’ve never seen footage of old Chinese master doing roundhouse kicks, never mind Thai style kicks. Now it is common in San Da. But you can’t compare their round house kick to the real dedicated Thai boxer.
Now, also, there is a push for grappling. But will their grappling ever compare to the grapplers. Is a little bit of everything better than a whole lot of your specialty, be it evasiveness, powerfull shots, etc., etc.?
Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?
I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm … and yet I’m having success.
Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising. Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go … who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir … how? Why?
Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn’t throw out one just because of a loss to the other.
Wrestling, Judo and SC all look very very similar. There are minor differences in execution, but I can identify what is going on in each one. Similarly, I like watching Sumo because I can see what is going on.
Why? Because a throw is a throw is a throw. They all rely on the same principles. The execution is slightly different - there are minor variations on a theme within each art, after all - but the basic movements must be the same or the throws won’t work.
While it does not logically follow that this MUST be the same for kicking and punching, reasoning by analogy it seems highly probable. My own limited experience with non-boxing or non-MT strikers suggests it is true.
Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?
Be reasonable Ray. Compare apples to apples.
I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm … and yet I’m having success.
I HIGHLY doubt this. You might be having them explained to you in ways that you think are highly against the norm, but I’m betting an experienced artist can find more similarities than differences. A punch is a punch. A kick is a kick. A lock is a lock. A throw is a throw.
Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising.
Different methods are not the same as different principles of movement. If you choose to punch your way out of the problem and I choose to throw, that’s one thing. But if you choose to throw you’re going to look a lot like me, and in the opposing circumstance, vice versa.
Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go
…
Only retards and submorons.
who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir … how? Why?
Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn’t throw out one just because of a loss to the other.
You are now comparing fight strategies and preferences, not principles of movement.
A punch is not a punch. On the most basic level you have different punches (upper cut, back fist, over hand, hook) then you have palms and open hand strikes and then you have something different which I haven’t seen much of outside of my style but you can call it wave punching… I’ve never seen it before.
Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.
An uppercut from one style doesn’t look like an uppercut from another? A hook from one doesn’t look like a hook from another?
There are analogous attacks in each art, yet I am to believe they employ different principles from art to art?
I don’t think so.
You and your style might PREFER one sort of punching over another, but that doesn’t make the principles you are using different. You still have to execute that punch right. And when you do, it’s going to look and feel a lot like the analogous attack from another art, properly executed.
Not directed at you, but I’m in a crabby, foul mood, and I’m finding this conversation horribly frustrating. You can’t move in ways counter to those principles and expect good results.
There are good principles, then there is everything else. Good training, regardless of stylistic preferences, employ those principles, with minor differences, not major ones, in execution. What you choose to emphasize - what your APPROACH to fighting is - is a separate subject entirely.
Well, my argument is that we are rounding everything down to apples … and its not only apples out there. What you see, what everyone has come to accept is apples, but there’s more than apples out there if you want it, are willing to go look for it, are open to it.
As far as seeing the differences, I have a pretty good eye, would consider 27 years (wow, do I feel old now) quite a decent amount of experience … and it wasn’t all form.
And considering that I’m doing the type of fighting that I’m doing now (no gear/no rules) I, personally, would want some good technology and not just go out with what some guy just happened to sell me. Reverse punch, round house kick just doesn’t cut it. Got that down pretty good by 6 years old.
I really want to get together with you because you are smart. I think if you saw first hand some of this stuff – and I mean this in a friendly way – you’d apreciate it and could lend some credability to it here on the board. Because even the stuff I’m going to post, unless you look at it in slow motion, it just looks like punching. You need to feel your arm going out by my arm coming in … but how to do it without the stupid wax on/ wax off motion.
As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage. And don;t say it’s against the stupid guy … 1st place Grapplers Quest, advanced, no gi.
Sorry, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage
I’ve never claimed that a grappler doesn’t present the head. Not sure where that is from. Grappling in a non-striking environment is not the same as in a striking environment. There are several things I do in non-striking bouts that I would never do if somebody were trying to hit me.
It even happens across sport grappling boudaries. Wrestlers new to submission work get choked and armlocked with some regularity - they are used to keeping their heads up and posting straight out on their arms. I should note that the principles of isolation, pressure and control don’t change. But the goal is different, so execution must subtlely alter.
All sport grappling does is give you a useable set of skills to work from. If you want to use them in a “no-rules” type of situation, then you have to practice those skills there. If all you do is grapple, then you certainly can get clocked or do something that will cost you dearly.
I haven’t read this thread yet, so this may have been said, but alot of us have been talking about this for years. Mp, ST00, myself and some others - fighting is fighting. On it’s most basic level, it looks the same. your reverse punch may not be the exact same as my right cross, but they are very similar. Perhaps competition is pointing that out. Instead of trying so hard to be different, focus on what you can make work in fighting.
Having said that, that doesn’t mean that your style’s underlying principles shouldn’t be there - they should be. But those principles are expressed through a set of combat effective techniques that are not unique to other styles.
…or maybe that’s what he always called it, what say you Ross? Why did you use San Da instead of San Shou?