Sabatoge at the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

First off I would like to say that our Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships was a great success and I had a lot of fun judging SC. However, there was some attempts at sabatoging our event.

A couple of weeks ago my teacher was contacted by the Ohio Athletic Commision. This group usually runs all the boxing events and normally groups would have to go thru them to hire judges / Doctors / rules and regulation etc etc. Lately this group has been now trying to take over San Shou and the Martial Arts events.

One of their representatives contacted my teacher wanting him to use them… blah blah bla. My teacher asked how did they know about us he replied with an email sent by a fellow kung fu teacher. The Shifu is Nick Scrima and here is the email he sent.
[I]
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: “Profato, Bernie” <Bernie.Profato@aco.ohio.gov>
To: “jervinsifu@att.net” <jervinsifu@att.net>
Sent: Wed, April 4, 2012 9:31:29 AM
Subject: FW: San Shou full contact in Ohio

Bernie Profato
Ohio Athletic Commission
Office: 330-797-2556
Fax- 330-7972559

From: Nick Scrima [nick.scrima@worldsandaleague.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:41 PM
To: Profato, Bernie
Subject: San Shou full contact in Ohio

Is the below event supervised or sanctioned by the Ohio Athletic Commission?

04-14-2012 (2 days)
Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships and Shaui Chiao San Shou Nationals
All the Kung Fu Forms and Weapons Divisions you want, Internal Forms and Weapons Continuous Light Contact Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou Full Contact
For more information, contact: Sifu John Ervin
Phone: 216.431.4991
Event Address: 6401 St. Clair Ave
Cleveland, OH, 44103 USA
Online: jervinsifu@att.net -[/I]

We ended up having to shut down our San Shou divisions. Coincidentally Nick Scrima had a tournament in Pittsburg on the Same day?

My question to you is…

Do you think this was unethical approach to tournaments held on the same day?

Why did not Nick Just call and ask my teacher? (we have known each other for over 20 years).

Morally was this good kung fu?

Your thoughts

ginosifu

2

Well…what are the rules for having a full contact event in Ohio ?

It’s not good to read into the motives of others without speaking to them first.

3

Recently there has been no governing body controlling San Shou. Just with in the last year or so the Ohio Athletic Commission has been trying to stick the foot in the door and gain control.

If Nick Scrima wanted to know what we were doing.. and if we were connected to the OAC, why didnt he just call? I have known him for 20 years… and my teacher even more?

ginosifu

4

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167046]Recently there have been no governing body controlling San Shou. Just with in the last year or so the Ohio Athletic Commission has been trying to stick the foot in the door and gain control.

If Nick Scrima wanted to know what we were doing.. and if we were connected to the OAC, why didnt he just call? I have known him for 20 years… and my teacher even more?

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Benefit of the doubt dude, you may be right or you may be wrong.
Best to give the benefit of the doubt, no?

5

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1167048]Benefit of the doubt dude, you may be right or you may be wrong.
Best to give the benefit of the doubt, no?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I understand, Nick Scrima is a well respected Eagle Claw and Mi Tsung Shifu. And yes you have to give some benefit of the doubt. I did train with Nick for a bit here in Cleveland until left for Florida and he is a nice guy.

However, he was sponsoring a tournament the same day in Pittsburg. We also had a fellow Shifu call him and speak with about this and he stated that Nick was possibly sending some fighters and that he was concerned about our safety protocals?

Fisrt off… No Promoter of an event in Pittsburg is going to send any fighters to a different event in another city. That is is stupid, I know I would never do that. Secondly… since we have known each other for over 20 years… shouldn’t he give us the benefit and call us and ask what we have going on?

Sounds kinda underhanded to me.

ginosifu

6

I knew that name sounded familiar…Eagle Claw guy, different family, but I think friendly with at least one of my sihings (I’ve watched youtube vids of my sihing performing at one of Scrima’s school’s grand openings).

Guess I’ll keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, sorry to hear about that Gino, that’s a bummer.

7

i dont care about your old lady drama.

8

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It’s ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it’s a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.

9

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/

Nick Scrima’s organization.

Probably just salty because he has to jump through regulatory hoops and you guys weren’t.

Or maybe he’s inching in on your turf. In that case I suggest you send a message that Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.

Edit. Actually, Scrima’s reasoning makes sense. The Pittsburgh tournament didn’t have Sanda. Perhaps their was some interest in Sanda and he was going to direct the interested parties to the Ohio tournament and was just doing his due diligence before he made any recommendations. Not quite as dramatic but it makes more sense.

10

Imma have to go with MasterKiller here. Also, i’ve spoken to Nick on several occasions and he seems pretty honest and most importantly, pretty committed to getting CMA the respect it deserves at the national level. Why he didn’t contact the organizers directly, who knows, maybe he tried or couldn’t find any info. I don’t think contacting the commission directly was the best way to go about it.

11

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1167059]The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It’s ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it’s a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.[/QUOTE]

This is in fact the correct.

12

Follow the money.

13

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1167059]The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It’s ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it’s a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.[/QUOTE]

If we as a Kung Fu Orginazation do all the highlighted above (except checking for HIV, HEP and do not pay our fighters), what’s the difference? If we provide a safe environment, have REAL doctors on site, provide all proper safety gear (fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads), enforce weight limits etc what’s the difference?

ginosifu

14

[QUOTE=Orion Paximus;1167063]Imma have to go with MasterKiller here. Also, i’ve spoken to Nick on several occasions and he seems pretty honest and most importantly, pretty committed to getting CMA the respect it deserves at the national level. Why he didn’t contact the organizers directly, who knows, maybe he tried or couldn’t find any info. I don’t think contacting the commission directly was the best way to go about it.[/QUOTE]

Exactly

I don’t disagree what Nick is doing is right or wrong or that he is not help CMA… I just think he should have contacted the promoter first.

ginosifu

15

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167083]Exactly

I don’t disagree what Nick is doing is right or wrong or that he is not help CMA… I just think he should have contacted the promoter first.

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

Your event has been publicized for nine months. Scrima tries to put you on the OAC radar TEN days before the event.

By the way…nick Scrima offers Sactioning Services that you can pay for.

You know…if your in a pinch and are running out of time and NEED sactioned because SOMEONE tipped off the OAC.

Verdict: dick move by Nick Scrima

16

There is a big issue with one part of a previous post :

“fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads”

When, as a promoter, you provide the gloves, head gear, chest protector, and shin pads, in essence, you are making a legal claim that the equipment is in condition to do its job.

Having dealt a bit with the legal part of this, what that means is that there is an implied liability that comes with an implied guarantee of the equipment.

This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection…but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.

If they state what is to be used and do a check, the competitor then assumes the legal liability for the equipment being in good order. This also means that the ring officials do not have to examine their own equipment after each bout.

So, regardless of the issue here, I would suggest that promoters need to be fully aware of the legal implications of their events…and in particular the implied fit for use of equipment.

17

[QUOTE=GLW;1167088]This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection…but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe we’re going to different events, but the only events where I’ve seen the gear NOT being provided is at kung fu tournaments.

18

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1167059]The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It’s ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.
[/QUOTE]

This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I’ve talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a “cut” of the gate for “sanctioning.” The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.

I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it’s one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).

19

Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud :stuck_out_tongue:

20

[QUOTE=B-Rad;1167091]Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud :p[/QUOTE]

Yes we did… He stated that he was possibly sending fighters to our tourney and wanted to see if we had used the OAC. He was concerned about the safety of his fighters.

The problem with his reply is that we have been fellow kung fu teachers for over 20 years and know exactly what each other does and does not. He knew how my teacher runs our tourney… He even has been a judge at many of our tourneys. There is no way he does not know how my teacher runs his tourney… There is no excuse not to call up front and just ask… “What is going on with San Shou”

ginosifu