Ah, sorry, I see you stated that earlier. I misread the first time. Yeah, that’s pretty shady. I always hated seeing people that I otherwise respected engage in petty petty behavior. Too many out there overestimate their importance in the grand scheme of things, and like to play politics.
Gino - Nick Scrima lived in Ohio for a while, right?
Was he ever connected with your event?
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1167117]Was he ever connected with your event?[/QUOTE]
Yes Nick lived here in Cleveland for a long time. He was the promoter of our tournament for the very first year (1991 or 1992 I forget), after that he left for Florida and my teacher took over the the tournament.
ginosifu
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;1167090]This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I’ve talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a “cut” of the gate for “sanctioning.” The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.
I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it’s one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you have to pay them. That’s the cost of the doing proper business. It’s not a huge portion. I’ve seen small shows clear 10K easy after all the fees were paid, including travel costs to the fighters and coaches. If they can do it, Taiji Legacy certainly should be able to.
But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can’t sell tickets, it’s a losing proposition for them. They don’t need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.
The bottom line is, if you want to play Big Boy sports, you have to conduct yourself like a Big Boy.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167082]If we as a Kung Fu Orginazation do all the highlighted above (except checking for HIV, HEP and do not pay our fighters), what’s the difference? If we provide a safe environment, have REAL doctors on site, provide all proper safety gear (fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads), enforce weight limits etc what’s the difference?
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it’s not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1167153]So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it’s not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?[/QUOTE]
Here I agree with you… I think maybe I will sit down with my teacher and talk about having HIV and HEP testing added to fighting events.
ginosifu
Hey, who doesn’t have a little hepatitis these days? 
I did not say that the promoter could NOT supply the required gear.
What I DID say was that when the promoter does supply the gear, there is an implied guarantee that the gear at all times meets the safety requirements.
This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized…like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).
The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.
One of the issues that ended with the AAU CMA moving away from doing Sanshou events was in part the legal requirements about the “guarantee” of the safety of the provided equipment.
As for Texas, the laws here have pretty much made full contact things die out. The funny thing is that it started no so much out of a desire for a Boxing Commission takeover but due to concerned parents.
Seems that fight clubs were becoming a popular thing at a number of colleges. Some students had some injuries and one of the sets of parents had connections and started a crusade… voila!..you have new laws. (at least that is the history I was able to track down but there could be more to it).
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167122] my teacher took over the the tournament.[/QUOTE]
ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1167181]ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?[/QUOTE]
John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80’s when he was here in Cleveland.
ginosifu
[QUOTE=GLW;1167167]This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized…like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).
The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.
[/QUOTE]
I’m mainly stressing over gloves; because there are legitimate issues when non-standard gloves are used.
The requirements you list are the same requirements that amateur boxing has and I’ve never even heard of an event where USA Boxing didn’t supply gloves. I believe the on-site medical staff usually wipes the gloves down, inside and out, with sanitary wipes, quick process.
Headgear, shin guards, and chest guards are a completely different story.
Headgear should be USA Boxing certified.
The other 2 should have some sort of consensus as to what’s acceptable.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167182]John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80’s when he was here in Cleveland.
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
One other question, did you consult your Sifu prior to coming to a public forum to call out Nick Scrima? Remember, in all things, you represent your teacher with every thing you do.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1167151]But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can’t sell tickets, it’s a losing proposition for them. They don’t need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can’t defend ANY of Taiji Legacy’s practices when it comes to Sanshou.
High entrance fee, no insurance, no sanctioning, completely arbitrary & flexible weight classes (there was an event in the past where they included 187+ as heavyweight), non standard gloves (you could step up there with 14oz super bag gloves and get away with it - not that cr@ppy everlast gloves from Academy are any better), glove weights changing within a month of the event (2009, the glove requirement dropped from 16 to 14 around 4 to 6 weeks out from the event), and medical personal that may be volunteers found the day of the event.
I think that’s why I never pulled the trigger. I know none of my muay thai coaches were ever thrilled about me doing that event.
Gino,
Here is my two cents on the issue.
GLW makes excellent points about supplying the equipment. I definitely would NOT. Competitors should be given specific information on which pieces of equipment to bring and no exceptions should be made.
Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn’t cut it.
Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common. Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts “little league” experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.
So the questions you need to have clear in your mind are: “What is the GLKFC trying to be? What is the goal of the tournament? Who are the target competitors? What is the target audience?”
As far as HIV testing, did you know?
- You can be exposed to HIV, yet it not be transmitted to you.
- Three to four days after you have been infected with HIV, you can transmit the virus to others.
- Testing for HIV should occur no sooner than ONE MONTH after possible exposure. If the test comes back negative after one month, another test must be taken at three months to confirm the result.
So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.
Just some thoughts!
The gloves can be a problem in those cases. The way the more “standardized” competitions and organizations have dealt with that (and unfortunately, there are many fewer standard events than non-standard ones) - is that they specify the equipment in such a way that the competitor pretty much has to buy the exact type and often the exact brand required.
For example, if you specify ## Ounce Olympic Regulation boxing gloves with laces, and so on, and then specify hand wraps to a great detail… you end up with a particular boxing glove…and you then specify a check of equipment by officials (a standard even required for things like weapons form competitions).
the other guards and protectors can be specified the same way.
In the past, I was dealing with rules with one well know CMA organization…and they would not make the safety equipment mandatory…it was “recommended” and if used, had to be of a certain type. This led to injuries with the macho types who felt they did not need protective gear. Crazy…
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1167203]
Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn’t cut it. [/QUOTE]
I’ve seen amateur kickboxing events where only a few pairs were utilized and were sanctioned bouts. I can not speak with authority on how the gear was cleaned, but I can say that they were not left to sit for hours.
USA Amateur Boxing tournaments often run for days and can have upwards of 100 bouts; I doubt they have a brand new pair for each bout, and they ARE provided.
As far as protecting against Hepatitis, I’ll get to that in a second.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1167203]
Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common. [/quote]
I made specific amateur boxing bouts under the provision & sanctioning of USA Boxing. I also have experience with amateur kickboxing/muay thai events put on by the USKBA, WKA, USMTA, and other regional promotions.
We’re not talking pro fighters; we’re talking about how TCMA tournaments fleece & endanger the health of amateur full contact fighters.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1167203]
Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts “little league” experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.[/quote]
I don’t think this has been the case at all in my experience of the TCMA tournament circuit on the east coast. I used to work the Wong tournament in DC, I attended the Wong Fei Hung tournament in Jersey, the Yin Yang tournament in Maryland, Taiji Legacy, the Five Tigers tournament in Maryland, and countless others.
While there were always childrens divisions, adults were hardly a minority.
The typical TCMA tournament way of doing things is to ignore san shou altogether and allow for full contact in completely unregulated, continuous, “medium”-contact “sparring” events. I’ve seen more broken bones & serious injuries in continuous sparring than in full contact events - mostly caused by inconsistent enforcement of the rules about “no face contact” and the fact that competitors are using sub-standard gear (like foam dipped karate chops).
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1167203]
So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection. [/QUOTE]
Blood tests for any sanctioned full contact event are NOT done on site.
They are done in the weeks before the event.
TCMA tournaments do not require proof of the test as sanctioned events do.
The most you’ll get is a statement saying “don’t come to our tournament with a disease” type statement.
If your bloodwork’s not clean, you won’t be fighting at a sanctioned amateur event, period. So defending against Hepatitis is done by policy before the event and not through the handling of the equipment.
Porkchop,
I do not have any dispute with anything you have posted above. I agree!
I have been judging in various tournaments since 1978. Most were karate/taekwondo based tourneys rather than TCMA. Though I have judged a few years at the Great Lakes Championship and the Hall of Fame Championship (both TCMA), plus a kung fu tourny in Louisiana many years ago. So, I can only say what I have seen.
My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn’t put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn’t a good idea. I just wouldn’t rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.
I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.
Like you, I have seen unnecessary injuries at TCMA tournys. I was once “excused” as a judge in a “continuous, “medium”-contact “sparring” event” because a competitor was using excessive contact and I stopped the fight several times to warn him. I was replaced by a well-known kung fu sifu who showed no regard for the safety of the competitors. Within two minutes the out of control competitor had broken his opponent’s nose. This should never have happened.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1167218]My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn’t put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn’t a good idea. I just wouldn’t rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.
I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.
[/QUOTE]
You’re totally correct that blood tests do have their limitations.
It’s probably not a bad idea, if gloves are be to provided, that they be fresh gloves for each fighter. With multi-bout tournaments, it gets difficult - either you have a ton of gloves, you trust people to disinfect their own equipment, or you do it for them. None of those 3 options are particularly ideal.
You almost wish that the same sifus who put such a concerted effort into bending the rules to allow for full contact continuous sparring would put the same effort into establishing and promoting a safe venue for legitimate full contact competition.
GLW / Pork Chop / Mooyingmantis
you guys all make good points. Safety is an issue and I am concerned for the fighters. However, with a small to medium size event such as ours, is it economically feasable to to do blood testing weeks / months in advance? When we required people to have certain gear (we even put it in writing), people either did not show or showed up with the wrong gear or no gear at all. Yes there were supposed to know the correct gear to wear, but a lot of times it just derailes the event because half of the fighters showed up with the wrong or no gear. Yes we get there money… but this does not promote the tourney well with no one fighting. Will we end up with very few fighters because of all the hoops they must go thru and pay an entrance fee for our event?
The OAC will now be watching John Ervin and his events so they are probably going to force him to either join the organization or not do any San Shou. As for where are tournament is going, John has always put fighting in front. Combat whether Shuai Chiao or Shuai Chiao and San Shou would be prepferrable to him.
If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.
ginosifu
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1167221]If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can survive any tournament without form competation. Someone has to pay the bill. Some people just love to pay you money and be judged. Not sure I can understand that kind of thinking. If someone asks me to give performance to entertain him, I want that person to pay me.