“No one with documented fighting experience was turned down.” (Knife/Dale)
***BUT they could be put on the shelf at the discretion of Rorion Gracie…
Here’s another TWC story about this that I know of first hand…back around 1994-95…William Cheung was here in NYC for a seminar and staying at Jimmy Ng’s condo in lower Manhattan…and I came over for a private lesson…about half way through the phone rings and it’s Anthony Arnett calling from Florida.
(Anthony is one of the top TWC guys and even at that time already had a room full of trophies from various full contact fighting tournaments he had won)…he called to tell William Cheung that Rorian Gracie only offered him an opportunity to be an alternate in an upcoming UFC - but that Anthony would have to pay an unrefundable $500.00 fee - but with no guarantee that he would ever fight.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;733873]Anerlich-
I trained at the Gracie academy for many years. Back in the original days, they actually had to go searching for competent contestants. They even put adds in martial arts publications to get fighters interested in competing. No one with documented fighting experience was turned down.[/QUOTE]
I dunno. Marty, as I said, was more involved with it than I (I only read about it on usenet). It might all have happened between Joe Grepo ( rep for Rick’s then instructor William Cheung in the US, though ti might have been someone else) and Art Davie and got knocked on the head somewhere else along the line between the middlemen. Just what I heard.
Rick, indeed, never talks about having “tried to enter the UFC but got turned down”. He did talk about it maybe happening, and if it did, he’d start intensive training for it, but it never did.
He has a good kickboxing record, but only got his BJJ blue belt in 2000 or thereabouts. I have no doubt if he entered an early UFC and the fight went to ground he would have had to tap out pretty quick.
Just one more of those things that never got out of the blocks, like the Gracie/Boztepe and Gracie/Urquidez matches, I guess, albeit with less publicity.
Mr.Parlati :o
are you suggesting that the Gracies are afraid to fight one of your so-called wing chun fighters?
From what i have seen every time a wing chunner got to UFC he was pummelled pretty quickly.
Why don’t you just walk into one of their gym’s and challenge, i am sure they would enjoy the workout, even if it did last about 2 minutes, if that.:eek:
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;733981]What I’m suggesting is that Anthony was only offered what I said he was offered. You draw your own conclusions from that.[/QUOTE]
I guess anything is possible. However, I remember them having trouble coming up with fighters for the early UFC’s. I don’t recall any kind of fee being involved.
I do know that there are a ton of people out there today who claim either they or someone they know was excluded from competing, ostensibly on the grounds that the Gracies were afraid that Royce might be beaten.
As far as decent fighters not being let into the early UFC’s , here is a partial list of the people that were “allowed” into the first four UFC’s that could have (or did) end up fighting 170 lb. Royce:
Ken Shamrock (220 lbs.) Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling Champion
Teila Tuli a 415 lb. professional sumo wrestler.
Kevin Rosier 6’4" 265 lb Kickboxer
Jason DeLucia 190 lb. Kung Fu fighter
Art Jimmerson boxer who competed at super middleweight, light heavyweight, cruiserweight and heavyweight and had a professional boxing record of 29-5.
Orlando Weit Muay Thai champ.
Eldo Dias Xavier 5’11" 180 lbs. Capoera fighter
Guy Metzger 6’ 200 lb kickboxing champ.
Jason Fairn kung fu fighter.
Remco Pardoel 6’2" 250 lb European jujutsu/judo champ.
Kimo Leopoldo 260lb. 6 ft 3 in 235 lb boxer/grappler who lost to Royce, but resulted in Royce having to drop out of the tourney.
Ron van Clief 10th Degree Red Belt and founder of the Chinese Goju System
Keith Hackney 200 lb. Kempo Karate black belt.
Emmanuel Yarborough 6’8" 600 lb sumo wrestler
Christophe Leninger Olympic Judo Silver Medalist.
Joe Charles 6’1" 260 lb. Judo black belt.
Zane Frazier 6’6" 230 lb Karate champion
Pat Smith 225 lb kickboxing champ
Steve Jennum 215 lb. ninjitsu fighter/police officer.
Gerard Gordeau world Savate champion.
David Levicki 6’5" 290 lb Kung Fu fighter.
Dan Severn 6’2" 250 lb. All American wrestler with 95 national and internation wrestling titles.
There’s no doubt that Royce brought forth a major paradigm shift in thinking when related to competition fighting. After watching him, what I respected the most is the fact that in most cases he was outweighed and could not match his opponents power base, but he still won, based mostly on the high level skills that he had in his GGJ system. Yes, what he was doing caught everyone off guard, but that is the key to fighting IMO, you don’t want to do things the other guys is familiar with to defeat him. Surprise works 100 times out of 100. That is why the street is such a different animal, every fight you have there has that element that is not seen in fighting competitions, the unknown element or lack of prior knowledge of your opponents tactics, strengths/weaknesses, abilities or lack thereof. This unknown element makes up for allot of other things that may never arise in the competition realm.
[QUOTE=sihing;734233]There’s no doubt that Royce brought forth a major paradigm shift in thinking when related to competition fighting.[/QUOTE]
And in a lot of other realms.
[QUOTE=sihing;734233]This unknown element makes up for allot of other things that may never arise in the competition realm.[/QUOTE]
Yeah… just imagine the competition fighter that also trains to do unconventional street stuff!!!
[QUOTE=Edmund;734196]Which Olympics was that?[/QUOTE]
My bad.
I got him mixed up with Ben Spijkers, the judo bronze medalist, who fought Renzo. I believe Leninger won the U.S. judo nationals twice, and medaled in the Judo worlds, but was only an alternate at the Olympics.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;734246]And in a lot of other realms.
Yeah… just imagine the competition fighter that also trains to do unconventional street stuff!!![/QUOTE]
Agreed!. If a competition fighter does train for the street as well, he would be much more formibable as a all around fighter IMO. Dale, is this common practice among the present day MMA fighters, to train for the street as well as the ring simultaneously?
Royce taught us allot of things, one thing is that the ground can be useful for us rather than something to fear. But I would strongly recommend that one not fight there for long while engaged in a street confrontation, as the varying unidentifiable threats (not found in comps) can make that place your final resting place real fast. Of course, this does not mean comp fighters can’t fight on the street, it is just a different game that’s all, with different factors leading to success. Not all street fighters can compete, not all comp fighters can fight on the street, as with any endeavour it is up to the individual and what they want out of it that matters most in the end. Some will fight at the drop of a hat, for others it takes more to make them aggressive, each situation is unique in circumstance and the individuals (regarding their personalities/skills/attitudes/etc..) involved.
[QUOTE=Matrix;734252]If that’s the case, then I’ll be working on my “surprise” skills. :D[/QUOTE]
Hey Bill,
Yes, the best surprise is when you bring a gun to a knife fight. Works for me..
Actually surprise is not a skill, it just is what it is, otherwise referred to as the “unknown”. The unknown is very scary for some, and should be. Just imagine back when Bruce Lee was alive, in the early 60’s wearing a suit and glasses. Most unfamiliar with who he was and what his skills where, would vastly underestimate his ability to fight. This is an extreme advantage for Bruce (not that he needed it anyways..), because mentally the other guy would be overconfident and not prepared for such a effective response from Bruce in most cases. They say, after the basics are absorbed, success in any athletic endeavour is 90% mental 10% physical. Fighting is not much different IMO.
[QUOTE=sihing;734253] is this common practice among the present day MMA fighters, to train for the street as well as the ring simultaneously?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know if I would call it common, but there definitely is a pretty sizeable sub-set out there who train this way.
Royce taught us allot of things, one thing is that the ground can be useful for us rather than something to fear. But I would strongly recommend that one not fight there for long while engaged in a street confrontation, as the varying unidentifiable threats (not found in comps) can make that place your final resting place real fast.
As far as fighting on the ground being good or bad, that is 100 situation dependent. In some situations, it is easily your best choice (assuming you know what you are doing there). In others, it is your worst choice. And in still others you don’t have a choice in the first place.
[QUOTE=sihing;734254]Actually surprise is not a skill, it just is what it is, otherwise referred to as the “unknown”. [/QUOTE]Hey James,
It was a joke…
I guess I better cancel my gig at Yuk Yuk’s
[QUOTE=sihing;734254]The unknown is very scary for some, and should be. [/QUOTE]The unknown can be scary, but it really shouldn’t be. It’s a part of life. If there were no surprises in life it would be pretty boring. N’est pas?
I agree that being prepared mentally is a good way to avoid being caught.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;734255]I don’t know if I would call it common, but there definitely is a pretty sizeable sub-set out there who train this way.
As far as fighting on the ground being good or bad, that is 100% situation dependent. In some situations, it is easily your best choice (assuming you know what you are doing there). In others, it is your worst choice. And in still others you don’t have a choice in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Agreed again, sometimes there is no choice, so those with experience there will definetly have greater chance for success.
I imagine that there are MMA players that don’t compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA.
[QUOTE=Matrix;734258]Hey James,
It was a joke…
I guess I better cancel my gig at Yuk Yuk’s
The unknown can be scary, but it really shouldn’t be. It’s a part of life. If there were no surprises in life it would be pretty boring. N’est pas?
I agree that being prepared mentally is a good way to avoid being caught.[/QUOTE]
Hi Bill,
Acutally I think you have a great sense of humour..
Regarding fights and violent confrontations, the unknown factor IMO is scary. In life it can make things more interesting and I agree that if surprises were not a part of the journey it would be a boring one at that.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programing, sorry for the hijack guys..
That’s the type of hijacking that I, for one, don’t mind one bit…
(This whole thread was going nowhere but down - right from the beginning). :rolleyes:
…
As to “surprises”…one of the most profound yet simple martial arts “maxims”, if you will…is something William Cheung used to say upon occasion back in the day:
“If You Haven’t Seen It Before - It’s Probably Going To Hit You.”
(Now apply this to the Royce Gracie phenomenon back in the 90’s and you see this “principle” working very clearly…as well as Ali’s boxing style in the 60’s-70’s…Bruce Lee’s lightening footwork/kicking/trapping/5 angles of attack skills, etc.)
…
As for this statement:
“I imagine that there are MMA players that don’t compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA.” (James)
***THAT’S exactly the approach to martial arts I, personally, decided to take some time ago. Although I’ve entered some students in comps on a few occasions (and they did well)…I have always trained myself and them for street-effectiveness first and foremost. Like was said - it’s all about one’s individual motivations.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;734315]That’s the type of hijacking that I, for one, don’t mind one bit…
(This whole thread was going nowhere but down - right from the beginning). :rolleyes:
…
As to “surprises”…one of the most profound yet simple martial arts “maxims”, if you will…is something William Cheung used to say upon occasion back in the day:
“If You Haven’t Seen It Before - It’s Probably Going To Hit You.”
(Now apply this to the Royce Gracie phenomenon back in the 90’s and you see this “principle” working very clearly…as well as Ali’s boxing style in the 60’s-70’s…Bruce Lee’s lightening footwork/kicking/trapping/5 angles of attack skills, etc.)
…
As for this statement:
“I imagine that there are MMA players that don’t compete and use the venue to help them prepare for the street when needed. Personal motivations vary for each of us in the MA.” (James)
***THAT’S exactly the approach to martial arts I, personally, decided to take some time ago. Although I’ve entered some students in comps on a few occasions (and they did well)…I have always trained myself and them for street-effectiveness first and foremost. Like was said - it’s all about one’s individual motivations.[/QUOTE]
Back a few years ago I would have critized you for a statement like that. Today I’ve learned that Martial Arts is a very individual thing. Wing Chun IMO is not a fighting style, but rather a training system, meant to develop certain attributes that can only HELP you achieve success in a physical confrontation. Nothing or no one, except for yourself, can guarantee 100% success in combat. All WC can do, like any MA, is help increase your chances. For me, I’ve never worried about street confrontations, simply for that fact that I choose to use other methods to deal with it, which first and foremost is AVOIDANCE. If one happens then I deal with it as it comes, by first using my wits, rather than my fists…
[QUOTE=sihing;734305] Regarding fights and violent confrontations, the unknown factor IMO is scary. In life it can make things more interesting and I agree that if surprises were not a part of the journey it would be a boring one at that.[/QUOTE] Well, I guess that’s another dimension for training, beyond the physical attributes and skills. We talk about being centered and balanced in our physical model. I think those qualities are also equally important in our emotions. To remain calm and stay within ourselves.
Let’s face it, all we can control in a given situation is ourselves. If we are overcome by fear or emotion we have lost our center as well. The emotions actually restrict our physical ability. We have given the opponent control, and by extension, lessen our control before the first move has been made. I know this is easier said then done, but it’s something to keep in mind.
