And then eventually age.
I have seen more films than I can count on all fingers and toes that showed octogenerians and up practicing their kungfu.
every morning, I see the 70 something dude running through his tai chi in the park by my place.
I have yet to see a ring fighter of any genre much more than 40, maybe a little more. Definitely not on the main circuits of real accredited and recognized championship fighting.
Originally posted by Meat Shake
[B]“anyway, one can only enjoy ring fight training for a short period of time, one can enjoy practice of Kungfu for their whole life.”
And the only thing keeping one from doing both is fear and excuses.
…
And then eventually age. [/B]
Yeah that age thing’s a b i t c h. Look at a pro athalete in any sport. The older ones are still good, and some go into their early 40s but eventually it stops them too. The thing is when they stop because of age they are still in better shape than most guys half their age. It’s the perspective and intent of what you want to do. That’s why MMA has a shorter shelf-life than TCMA. Your aging body can only take so much of that training and punishment.
WD, MSToo and I know a guy who competed full contact for his 50th bday.
Originally posted by Judge Pen
That’s why MMA has a shorter shelf-life than TCMA. Your aging body can only take so much of that training and punishment.
I dunno… you certainly can’t compete that long, but nor could a cma. does that mean that they can’t train though? One of the bjj coaches at my school is 38 and still wins competitions nationally. I have a 75 judo coach who still grapples. he will throw us as well, but we dont throw him for obvious reasons.
Certainly there are exceptions, but even in the case you mention, there are concessions in his training. Sadly it happens to everyone.
There are still competitive drills people do well into thier sixties - push hands , grappling, et al. I know guys who sparred in class right into thier sixties - you just need moderation and don’t expect to be Bruce Lee.
To KL’s defense, yeah, the health aspects of CMA are a huge benefit - and why I beleive in them. I know some famous MA types who practically crippled in thier old age because thier training lacked balance.
But on the flip side, I’ll send someone to a MMA gym if there is no useful CMA around. I’d hate for people to train only to be helpless, and there are still many CMA frauds out there knowing or unknowing.
As far as my generalization - it’s a cultural thing. I’ve played CMA that had really detailed instruction - but until fairly recently you were either in the door, or you didn’t get the details, or the teacher didn’t really know them. MMA schools start on explaining the progression on day one. This is a flaw in CMA training culture, along with the cultural baggage of do, but don’t explain. Watch, but don’t ask questions - all of which hold back the transmission of skill.
Plus there are many CMA schools that have gone through generations of poor transmission, and therefore have significant departures from reality, as well as good schools that no longer test thier skills, and have developed significant flaws or variance from useful skills.
There are also a lot of kick ass CMA out there. But if haven’t at least sparred with people outside your club, in a largely no rules environment, you are living in a fantasy world. Sure there are skills that do not translate to free sparring. Sure there are other methods of training that come into play… but you need a skilled opponent to teach you where your gaps are, and how to REALLY apply that cool move you have.
Look, I’m staring down the age that my teacher told me I should stop fighting at in less than a few weeks. I’m planning on getting into better shape so I can play more… but not over do it. I think I can because of the health benefits of CMA. I’ll never knock that. But the CMA world needs to look at modern sports training and how that applies to building better kung fu.
well, here’s my personal view.
mma training has value for what it’s objectives are.
I think immediate results are apparent in mma not so much because of methodology, but because early on the student gets the exposure to their own innate abilities and it is clear where ability is and where incompetence or ignorance (not the negative versions but the factual versions of the words) is as well.
In traditional Chinese martial arts, the process and method is “slow and steady” progress is made, but it is gradual and often it is not beginning in the sportive combative aspects. Strength is built first, breathing, posture, all these little things are fixed through practice. All the bad habits of body structure are worked on first, then tuning the machine happens.
Many people don’t get passed the part where the restoration takes places.
And yes, there are exceptions to the rule on the age thing, but even teh training methods of mma are not really acceptable to someone of advanced years, where as qigongs and kungfu sets can be done by anyone of any age.
I don’t know if you guys have seen the old guy performing Tan tui flickering on someones home video screen, but that dude is getting long in the tooth and his kungfu energy is better than some 1/3 his age never mind half. Comparitivly and not in a negative sense, but his students performance in the same series shows that age is what he is lacking. 
KL - There are other arts that keep you healthy as well - not just CMA.
The idea of slow and steady is a myth built by the propogation of commercial schools during the Ching dynasty. Advanced skill takes a long time - but you can take someone with 1 year of a good system, and they should be able to fight as good as a 1 year MMA player. Period. If not, you don’t know how to teach.
The exception of course, is if your students are lacking in physical attributes, or don’t train.
The more advanced skills take time to develop, but does not mean there isn’t skill development in the short term. If your school isn’t doing this, they are holding back, don’t know, or you s@ck.
CMA is not deficient. But occasionally the training methods need review. Now go drink the Kool-Aid.
The exception of course, is if your students are lacking in physical attributes, or don’t train.
First off, the better part of the majority of any student in any martial art school has never trained, lacks in many physical attributes and everyone progresses at different levels and along a different timeline dependent on a few factors such as physiccal detriment/attributes, age, etc etc.
Second, I am well aware that there are myriad ways to bring yourself health and vitality. I chose Kungfu and Qigong, because of personal interest.
I agree that the ability to wage combat is #1 in any study that calls itself “martial” art.
I don’t agree that people with one or two years in any study or practice are any measure at all of the greater body of study and practice. They are newbs either either way. Advanced ability takes time no matter what you choose to do. In kungfu the body of knowledge is greater than that of sport specific competitive mma.
I agree with your last paragraph KL. I’m just saying a 1 year CMA player should be equal in pugging skill to a 1 year MMA player. All other things being equal..
Sure thier still puppies, but now they can bite.
mma fighting, I am not so certain one can continue this practice for the duration of their life, so, it’s not a full lifestyle in that sense. It has an expiry date, whereas Kungfu, does not.
I don’t get it, so ALL kungfu is ok to do all your life but MMA is not?
You also need to realize that the MMA tends to draw fighters while the CMA draws dreamers.
My SC has improved by leaps and bounds since I have stopped training Shuai Chiao and started training MMA. The reason why is very simple (although it took me a while to figure it out)
When I was training SC, what we did was too hard core for everyone who came through the door. People would train once or twice, and then never show up again. It got to the point where it was funny in a sad way.
Now, I get to try out all the stuff MS2 taught me against a variety of fighters and grapplers on a consistent basis. They play as hard as we do, and like to mix it up and don’t get salty if you accidentally throw them too hard. It’s a part of the game.
Add that element to the CMA and a lot of people might be surprised at the results.
I’m just saying a 1 year CMA player should be equal in pugging skill to a 1 year MMA player.
ok, now we can get to meat and potatoes.
With this I don’t think it is true for the most part and I think it has to do exactly with training methodologies.
For instance, in MMA, you are generally full contact sparring within 3 months. At least, this is my experience. You definitely get the feel of the inside of the ring almost immediately, probably on your first day.
In traditional martial arts training of the schools I have knowledge of curriculum and system, you are not going to find yourself in full contact sparring on the inside part of the year, never mind 3 months.
That is a difference that can be to the benefit or the detriment of the student. Many mma students are lost because of injury early on. Many are disheartened and give up.
The training of full contact fighting is also not appealing to many people who are interested in learning martial art but are unwilling to risk a broken nose or a black eye for a variety of good reasons (work, family commitment, etc etc). And so they will seek other ways to learn because they are still interested. However, those with innate fighting abilities gravitate quickly to sportive combat training.
In kungfu training, it is said you will develop more quickly as a fighter in a full class environment than you will in private instruction. This is pretty much because of the opportunity to spar and test what you have learned. But even then, early in the students training, sparring is not the focus.
It’s what we had in Dr.Wu’s class, too bad you weren’t there in those days.
But it is hard to attract people with strong hearts to CMA because of the silk pajama image.
Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
[B]It’s what we had in Dr.Wu’s class, too bad you weren’t there in those days.
But it is hard to attract people with strong hearts to CMA because of the silk pajama image. [/B]
MSToo has extracted the most pure form of the correct…
I’ve actually said the same thing many times before
The arts have been hijacked by so much BS that the people who want to learn real usable skills won’t go anywhere near “kung fu” any more.
It then becomes a cycle of degeneration because the arts are left more and more in the hands of those who are clueless…
Just to clarify, I was responding to WD.
“When I was training SC, what we did was too hard core for everyone who came through the door. People would train once or twice, and then never show up again.”
Yup. 
(You also need to realize that the MMA tends to draw fighters while the CMA draws dreamers.)
try using the words competitors and people who are not.
It might make a little more sense.
no, try using the words
“people who live in reality and want functional skills”
and
“people who have watched too many Shaw Brothers movies and believe in death touches”
Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]no, try using the words
“people who live in reality and want functional skills”
and
“people who have watched too many Shaw Brothers movies and believe in death touches” [/B]
dude, you are drawing on two extremes. Both of which are not completely true.