Realism WCK power generation for the 21th century

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]Here’s a better test that. One that I’ll do with anyone who claims to have this kind of power and who thinks that this power is equal to the type of power generated by a shotputter.

I’ll let them put thier fist on my stomach and generate as much of this type power into me as they can. Next, like a shot putter, I use a rotational movement with my body to strike with my fist as hard as I can into that person’s stomach. We continue until one of us can’t continue. I’m betting I can continue much longer with the shotputter’s type of power than the other person can with his “zero inch” power. [/B]

–Maybe so. But can you generate this “shotputter’s” power without a wind-up?..without telegraphing it to the opponent?..when you are already in close with the opponent with no room to move?..“on the fly” in the heat of an exchange? I didn’t say the “inch” power and the “shotputter’s” power where equal or the same thing. I said that the “inch” power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this…not the “shotputters” type of power. Can you do the test I proposed? But wait, I forgot, you don’t even know WCK, so why do you care?

Keith

"Andrew,

Your comments is very respecablely taken and appreciate for your sharing. It might reflex the truth or it might not."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORDS…“or it might not”?

This is what is THE WORST CHARACTER FLAW OF ALL…about you, Hendrik…

YOUR INHERENT DISHONESTY.

There is no “might not”…and you know it.

Andrew hit the nail right on the head…and you know it.

You’re pathetic - and I gotta tell you point blank…

Of all the people who frequently post on this forum - I respect you THE LEAST.

zero respect for you.

Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe.

And you then compound your sins by BOMBARDING the forum with thread-after-thread and post-after-post of total bull5hit…in a sick attempt to falsify what’s true…and to attempt to make true what’s false.

ZERO RESPECT.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]"Andrew,

Your comments is very respecablely taken and appreciate for your sharing. It might reflex the truth or it might not."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORDS…“or it might not”?

This is what is THE WORST CHARACTER FLAW OF ALL…about you, Hendrik…

YOUR INHERENT DISHONESTY.

There is no “might not”…and you know it.

Andrew hit the nail right on the head…and you know it.

You’re pathetic - and I gotta tell you point blank…

Of all the people who frequently post on this forum - I respect you THE LEAST.

zero respect for you.

Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe.

And you then compound your sins by BOMBARDING the forum with thread-after-thread and post-after-post of total bull5hit…in a sick attempt to falsify what’s true…and to attempt to make true what’s false.

ZERO RESPECT. [/B]

Victor,

Thanks for your opinion. I am enjoying trying to understand your thought process.

I was thinking:

may be it is because I brought up something un-intentionally and that crash your dream. Thus, you resent me?

Or, may be it is you like to be in a position that telling/leading the world and driving the world toward the 21th with your way. and I accidentally brought up something or open a can of worm that make your hope needs to be modified alittle or ?

Or, may be …

Who knows? Lot of may be.

In any case, if I un-intentionally broken your heart. Just dont take me serious. and ignore me.

As for the INHERENT DISHONEST, I never recalled I sell anyone the Chinese Stories such as Shao Lin Monks create this best killing tool to kill the Qing.

Thus, Inherently I didnt lie. Because junior Buddhist monk has to take precept and vow of not killing and has to repent even just give raise a thought of hurting others.

The senior monk who achieve true samadhi by default free from those kind of KILLING Thoughts- as the Buddhist patriachs call-- " delusive thoughts". Thus, how can the senior monks who has true samadhi create something to kill while they are free from the “delusive thoughts”? Telling others that Some Senior Chan Monks great some killing tool to help others revenge is an INHERIT DISHONEST about Buddhism.

As for your view of “Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe.”

You mean because I dont believe your Shao Lin story and your view of ultimate wing chun? Now, can you nail me to be REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFULL because I respect your view but dont share your believe?

I really appreciate to be your ZERO RESPECT because you provide such a great chance to help me to check if I still get mad because other’s mis-understanding and give me Zero Respect. Or I can understood where the other comes from without getting any emotional. That is a part of Chan training.

Victor, ignore this ZERO respect person or his posts. Not worted to waste energy.

BUT, have you think about may be being open hearted and open minded to be able to embrace all ignorance of the ZERO REPECT person is also a path to the great Ultimate achievement for your? As it said, change the heart change the mind and one raise up to a broader and higher level?

Best Wishes.

I’ve decided not to ignore you.

I’ve decided to beat your dishonesty into the ground.

And I’m very happy that a whole bunch of other people around here have decided to do the same thing.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]I’ve decided not to ignore you.

I’ve decided to beat your dishonesty into the ground.

And I’m very happy that a whole bunch of other people you and here have decided to do the same thing. [/B]

Thanks and appreciate for you to think of a ZERO RESPECT to be so significant to waste energy at.

I would thank your help to beat my dishonesty into ground, for that you have help me to improve myself and make me a better person who is free from dishonesty.

Thanks and appreciate for your help. bro.

Becareful… Hendikk likes being beaten.

He’s kind of sick that way.

You may be onto something there, duende.

Originally posted by anerlich
LOL! You’ve presented a lot of unsubstantiated stream-of-consciousness rubbish.

Rubbish? His methods may be frustrating, distracting, even annoying… but rubbish? Let’s see, what has Hendrik been trying to get across…

  1. That the “short” power or “inch” power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

  2. That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

  3. That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

  4. That the “traditional” approach still has value and should be respected. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

So I don’t think there is a “nail” here, nor that it has been “hit on the head.” So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik “inherently dishonest” is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don’t like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

Keith

Originally posted by KPM
[B]…but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don’t like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

Keith [/B]

I second that 100%.
Everybody can share his opinions but personal vendettas like we see too much on this forum are bad for everybody. IMO,trying too much to “expose” those whose ideas are different from our’s only results in “exposing” our own limitations and narrow mind.

So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik “inherently dishonest” is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don’t like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

I never said he was “inherently dishonest”, I contested his assertion of supporting his claims with physical “evidents”. All of your other points have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Good advice about calming down, I suggest you take it.

As Hendrik keeps telling us all about his own posts, it’s a public forum, and I can say what I like. He’s not exactly Mother Teresa when it comes to veiled or unveiled insults himself.

Besides, I like argung and throwing insults. Sue me.

I have no personal vendetta. I call BS when I see it, whoever posts it.

BS

We all can agree that what one may consider as BS can as well be appreciated in a different manner by others.

  1. That the “short” power or “inch” power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. "

(Just HOW important is it - this inch power?
Answer: Means very little during the course of a real fight).

  1. “That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin.”

(So what? - Why should I care?)

  1. “That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past.”

(Again…big deal! Great for a discussion around the fireplace in my old age.)

  1. That the “traditional” approach still has value and should be respected.

(Only if that “traditional” approach serves me well in the here and now martial arts world.)

As for Hendrik being an extremely dishonest person with a personal racial superiority agenda and a penchant for falsehoods and evasive denials when confronted with evidence contrary to what he wants to believe - ALL OF IT BEING DONE in order to cover up his own personal insecurities about his fighting abilites - I stand by everything I’ve said. All of which could easily be overlooked were it not for the fact that he makes an ENORMOUS amount of threads and posts connected to all of this.

It’s at that point that people will react with severe criticism.

He brings it all upon himself.

Originally posted by KPM
I said that the “inch” power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this…not the “shotputters” type of power.
And this is exactly why you only see “bad WC” when people actually have to use it to fight. Those “inch power” punches simply don’t work.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]1. That the “short” power or “inch” power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. "

(Just HOW important is it - this inch power?
Answer: Means very little during the course of a real fight).

  1. “That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin.”

(So what? - Why should I care?)

  1. “That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past.”

(Again…big deal! Great for a discussion around the fireplace in my old age.)

  1. That the “traditional” approach still has value and should be respected.

(Only if that “traditional” approach serves me well in the here and now martial arts world.)

As for Hendrik being an extremely dishonest person with a personal racial superiority agenda and a penchant for falsehoods and evasive denials when confronted with evidence contrary to what he wants to believe - ALL OF IT BEING DONE in order to cover up his own personal insecurities about his fighting abilites - I stand by everything I’ve said. All of which could easily be overlooked were it not for the fact that he makes an ENORMOUS amount of threads and posts connected to all of this.

It’s at that point that people will react with severe criticism.

He brings it all upon himself. [/B]

Dear Victor,

With Respect,
Again, Thank you and appreciate for your critic.

With your critics, I will certainly check myself to see if I have done what you described.

If I am, then, There is always vast room for me to improve to become better, and appreciate for your concern , and the help and opportunity you give me to improve.

If your critic doesnt fit me, then, I would still thank you for your time and critics. and take your critics as a constructive present you kindly give to me.

Thank You and appreciate

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And this is exactly why you only see “bad WC” when people actually have to use it to fight. Those “inch power” punches simply don’t work.

Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this “inch power” properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a “lost art.” I’ll ask again…you don’t even do WCK, so why do you care? Go criticize someone else.

Keith

Andrew wrote:
I never said he was “inherently dishonest”, I contested his assertion of supporting his claims with physical “evidents”. All of your other points have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Victor used your post and Hendrik’s response to that post to label Hendrik as “inherently dishonest” in this thread. My response was to both of you. Sorry you cannot see such simple connections. As far as physical evidence…I would like to see more myself. But at least Hendrik has posted pictures of White Crane practitioners and some links to White Crane sites with more pictures. Its hard to do a lot more than that on a discussion forum. KPM

Good advice about calming down, I suggest you take it.

I’m perfectly calm. I’m not the one telling someone else that their ideas are “rubbish”, nor am I the one calling someone “dishonest.” I was just trying to bring a little moderation to the discussion. Like I said before, if you don’t like what or how Hendrik posts then ignore it. KPM

Keith

"Dear Victor,

With Respect,
Again, Thank you and appreciate for your critic.

With your critics, I will certainly check myself to see if I have done what you described.

If I am, then, There is always vast room for me to improve to become better, and appreciate for your concern , and the help and opportunity you give me to improve.

If your critic doesnt fit me, then, I would still thank you for your time and critics. and take your critics as a constructive present you kindly give to me.

Thank You and appreciate" (Hendrik)

I’m betting that…in Hendrik’s mind…the only operative phrase in the above statement is this:

“If your critic doesn’t fit me…”

And that he’s already discarded everything else.

KPM wrote:

Rubbish? His methods may be frustrating, distracting, even annoying… but rubbish? Let’s see, what has Hendrik been trying to get across…

  1. That the “short” power or “inch” power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

**I don’t think that’s rubbish either. I agree that historically this may be significant.

  1. That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

**And that seems to be the key aspect of Hendrik’s claim – that Shaolin-derived methods don’t use short power. I don’t know if that is true or not. The problem is that there is so much cross-pollination over the years, with “outside” influences creeping in, that it is difficult to say. He may be onto something.

  1. That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

**Again, I agree with you.

  1. That the “traditional” approach still has value and should be respected. Rubbish? I don’t think so.

**Again, I agree with you. However, having value and being respected doesn’t mean, at least for me, that it is accepted as the best way, the only way, the defining way. Certainly it is the historical way but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it should be adopted as the “DNA”. There is a historical way jiujitsu was taught, done, etc. Same with boxing or any other fighting method. Those ‘ways’ don’t necessarily inform us of how we should do them today. What does inform us of how we, as individuals, should do things are our personal results.

So I don’t think there is a “nail” here, nor that it has been “hit on the head.” So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik “inherently dishonest” is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don’t like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

**I don’t agree with the “ignoring it” part. I think Hendrik challenges us, forces us to think, to be critical, to evaluate our own ideas – that’s all useful whether we agree with his perspective or not. Ignoring it, putting your head in the sand, is not useful or productive.


KPM wrote:

I said that the “inch” power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this…not the “shotputters” type of power.

KF responded:

And this is exactly why you only see “bad WC” when people actually have to use it to fight. Those “inch power” punches simply don’t work.

KPM then responded:

Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this “inch power” properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a “lost art.” I’ll ask again…you don’t even do WCK, so why do you care? Go criticize someone else.

**First, in my view, short power, inch power, whatever you call it, is a part, and an important part, of WCK, but it is not the whole enchilada (not what WCK was designed for). It is an element of the method. And just like any element, how much stress an individual puts on it in their expression (application) will be an individual matter.

**Second, KF, I think it is more accurate to say that you haven’t seen anyone that could make their short power work. That’s probably true – many can “do it” in drills or demos, but few of them actually develop it in fighting (so they can’t make it work). Short power is a significant part of “my game”, but I’ve found that it is only an element that can be used in certain situations.

**Third, Keith, I don’t think it is a “lost art” – I’ve seen many folks able to generate short power (at least in demo). I’ll agree with you that many have down-played the significance of that element in their expressions, but that is how things should be. It is like a bob-and-weave, short hook-type boxer (Joe Frazier) that doesn’t use jabs or crosses very much – sure they are an element of boxing, but how you fit them into your boxing will depend on you. They may play a very small role or a very large role. To say “historically they played a large role” may be accurate; but that doesn’t mean we must do it that way today.

**Finally, criticism is a good thing, a positive thing, it should be welcomed – criticism is not a personal attack but a means of growth.

Originally posted by KPM
Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this “inch power” properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a “lost art.”
Ah, the old, “the old masters used to do it, but no one can do it now” argument. If it isn’t able to be done now, it probably was never done with any effectiveness in the first place.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Short power is a significant part of “my game”, but I’ve found that it is only an element that can be used in certain situations.
I seriously doubt you are doing much or any damage when you hit someone from and inch or two away from them.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Third, Keith, I don’t think it is a “lost art” – I’ve seen many folks able to generate short power (at least in demo).
Demos are completely different than real figthing. If anyone should know this, it should be you.