Re: Chan Family forms posted in Video Thread

[Fu-Pow]

I like most of the forms. I see huge similarities in how we do the form vs. how other branches do them. The Chan Family forms seem to follow good body mechanics. They keep a good structure and don’t over extend the chest.

One thing I don’t like is that they don’t show as much crispness in the moves it almost looks too loose to the point of being sloppy. I see more of a Northern influence in there forms also which leads some people to believe they are wushu-ized. I don’t think so though, I think that is how they are meant to be played.

Its interesting that their Siu Mui Fah is so different from ours. While I recognize all of the movements in their Siu Mui Fah I don’t know any form that has them in quite the same order.

FP

[Ou_Ji]

So, are you saying that Chan family CLF suks and they can’t fight and their past masters are goobers??? Huh???

That’s it, I challenge you to a fight to the death. Get on a plane right now and fly out to where I live and stay for a week in a very expensive hotel before the fight.

If you don’t then you’re a chicken sheet and I win.

[hskwarrior]

i think if someon wanted to…they can jump on his back about him saying the chan family has good body mechanics as if other CLF schools don’t.

foot in mouth syndrome. maybe a fetish!

hsk.

[TenTigers]

yah, but where’s the link? I wanna see this stuff too, ya know.

[bigdoing]

I think I know who does perfect CLF in Fu-Pows eyes, only his sifu.

Any body elese is playing there forms with out the full intent of CLF and will never have the correct emphisis on how to do this.

I think we all at one point belive this. That only our teachers and our fellow brothers and sisters from our schools do it right.

Then, you get into some scuffles with other practioners and realize it doesnt matter so if the sow was throw with the full extension, if the covering hand was in the same place it would be in the form, or if I was wearing my tang style kung fu outfit when I was fighting.

Comparred to the way we our taught in our respective kwoon’s all other sifu’s teaching are going to look different in technique and flavor and enrgy etc…even if it is just a bit…thats whys its an art.

Clf compared to ANY other southern art look a lot NORTHERN…in fact out of the half or dozen so times ive been approached when practicing out side, when the person inquiring has some martial arts back ground most sayj “Is it northern shaolin?”

Half our ish is norhtern my brother.

Continued Prosperity to All

Bryan Davis.

[Green_Cloud]

Ok you guys got my curiosity, but who and what video are you talking about??

[CLFNole]

Green Cloud:

See the Southern Video Thread down a few from this one. Page 3 to be exact.

[Eddie]

those videos makes me proud to tell people about CLF, and shows are beautyful CLF really is.

that staff form is nice. Never seen that one before. wouldnt have thought it is CLF if I didnt read it.

[Infrazael]

IMO CLF is CLF.

Sau Choys are Sau Choys. I mean get real – every Sau will be different anyways. And anyone that knows what they’re doing will be able to gauge and time effectively to know just what length of extension to use . . . . . . .

just my 2 cents.

[Fu-Pow]

@bigdoing

I think I know who does perfect CLF in Fu-Pows eyes, only his sifu.

Any body elese is playing there forms with out the full intent of CLF and will never have the correct emphisis on how to do this.

I think we all at one point belive this. That only our teachers and our fellow brothers and sisters from our schools do it right.

Then, you get into some scuffles with other practioners and realize it doesnt matter so if the sow was throw with the full extension, if the covering hand was in the same place it would be in the form, or if I was wearing my tang style kung fu outfit when I was fighting.

Well thanks for the blanket generalizations and speculations about things you have no knowledge of. :rolleyes: Wow, you have really enlightened me.

Comparred to the way we our taught in our respective kwoon’s all other sifu’s teaching are going to look different in technique and flavor and enrgy etc…even if it is just a bit…thats whys its an art.

That’s a convenient way to hide ineptitude as well…“well it’s a stylistic choice.” That’s what fine artists that have no talent do as well.

There are some stock techniques in CLF that should look very, very similar, even if there are slight differences.

Clf compared to ANY other southern art look a lot NORTHERN…in fact out of the half or dozen so times ive been approached when practicing out side, when the person inquiring has some martial arts back ground most sayj “Is it northern shaolin?”

Half our ish is norhtern my brother.

Continued Prosperity to All

Bryan Davis.

The Chan Family stuff looks more Northern than the Futsan stuff. People have pointed out that my teacher plays it with more of a Hung Gar flavor.

[Fu-Pow]

@Infrazael

IMO CLF is CLF. Sau Choys are Sau Choys. .

Sau Chuis might look the same to an untrained eye because all you see is the Xing, the form, or shape of it. But to do it correctly, ie with the most force, you have to have the right Jin ie body mechanics and it must be played with the correct Yi, intent. In CLF the “correct” intent is known as Sha Chi/Saat Hei, or a killing aura. When you watch Mak Sifu do his form it looks scary…why? What’s different than when you or I do the form?

In order to see these things you have to know what you are looking for.

All CLF is not the same.

[bigdoing]

Fu-Pow wrote:

"When you watch Mak Sifu do his form it looks scary…why? What’s different than when you or I do the form?

I may not have enlightened you, but its quite obvious that my statement holds some relevence. Your stating that your sifu is doing it correct, and that his jing is the correct way. No doubt he is the man, hes got the expierence and the knowledge on how to use CLF, but again, thats his flavor.

At least one of the players of those Chan forms is a highly respected sifu in his own right. From experience, Family style does seems to emphisize being a bit more relaxed than some other branches. Again, its interpritation of principle. In traditionol Chinese medicine, there are dozens of formula to combat one type of sickness or invasion, as long as the principles of yin and yang, and no antagonistic mixtures are used, the underlying pinciple is what is important.

Sorry if I came off as a self righteous cave dwelling hermit sage who knows the Tao of reading minds

Peace.

[bigdoing]

In my abve post when i say that family style emphisizes being a bit more “relaxed” I dont mean that other lines are “stiff” or whatever, thats just a word to describe a way of playing the forms, I dont know how to state this using the limited tool of language with out sounding a little egoistic or what have you. sorry if I offend anybody.

To me its all CLF. Im just happy to part of the whole thing.

[Fu-Pow]

@bigdoing

Fu-Pow wrote:

"When you watch Mak Sifu do his form it looks scary…why? What’s different than when you or I do the form?

I may not have enlightened you, but its quite obvious that my statement holds some relevence. Your stating that your sifu is doing it correct, and that his jing is the correct way. No doubt he is the man, hes got the expierence and the knowledge on how to use CLF, but again, thats his flavor.

Well I wouldn’t train with my Sifu if he sucked…but honestly I see the same kind of qualities in other high level players…Chen Yong Fa comes to mind.

Again, its interpritation of principle.

What do we mean by “principle” in martial art? I think that it means a certain kind of Jin/Ging (ie way of moving) and a certain Yi (or mind-intent.)

People that do a CLF Tiger Form like they’re doing Taiji are not doing it “right.” Even if there techniques Fa are technically correct, the Jin and Yi of the form don’t support those techniques.

To use an example from another art that has examined this relationship more, Taiji. A lot of people think Taiji is very ineffective. That’s because most people don’t practice it with the right body mechanics, its a very unusual way of moving.

They try and use body mechanics that fit with external styles. Without the correct Jin to support the Fa the Taiji Fa fall flat. In order to have the right Jin in Taiji you must have the right Yi. In Taiji that is relaxed, the mind is calm and tranquil, despite what is going on outside.

Sorry if I came off as a self righteous cave dwelling hermit sage who knows the Tao of reading minds

Peace.

No worries, but I had to call you out on it.

FP

[bigdoing]

fu pow,

The cliche “fist at the end of a rope” for example comes to mind, when Im talking about one principle. If in CLF we are using our waist to lead our arm/hand movements, then that is doing it correct. OF course intent or Yi has to be there, you cant just flail your arms around with out the direction of spirit and focus.

You might throw a sow with a bit more extension, play it a bit closer, more connected, less connected, but the theme of “fist at the end of the rope” is still there.

Our bodys are all difernet, our “gears” are all connected differently, like a bikes wheel, some of us are mountain bikes, some of us road bikes, other bmx, etc…

so the way we turn our waist, the proportions, the time it takes to get us to the end of the motion etc all vary.

Ive been studying for seven years now, I did about a year and a half of hung sing . I only learned ng lu ma and ng lu choi, plus a lot a san shou drills, the way I learned to play that style was more extented and a bit more tense than what ive been studying for the last six years, which is family style, the way Ive been taught now it a lot more 'loose" and not as extended", Ive felt both sides, Ive sparred with people of both branches, and Im speaking from expericence on the issue.

From the get go in the hung sind, we played with contact on parter drills, and there was a lot more external jing going on, when I began studying with my Sifu now, he focused a LOT on building up through ChiGong first, and it took a longer time to get the contact thing going.

Both sides are correct, both are efective, both lead to the same place.

There a big “kid” in my school, hes about 6"3 250plus 18year old, been there abnout four years, his forms look like ****, but fighting, when he throws a sau, even though it is not text book, it hurts, He brokeen my nose with a a dot choi, when he does it in a form, it looks weak, when it hits you it hurts.

I just got a mac mini with the minium ram, hopefully in a few months (july) I will buy some more memory and put up some videos of myself to be berated and scoffed at by all.

until then,

peace of course.

bryan.

[Fu-Pow]

@bigdoing

Our bodys are all difernet, our “gears” are all connected differently, like a bikes wheel, some of us are mountain bikes, some of us road bikes, other bmx, etc…

so the way we turn our waist, the proportions, the time it takes to get us to the end of the motion etc all vary.

That’s a very good point.

Ive been studying for seven years now, I did about a year and a half of hung sing . I only learned ng lu ma and ng lu choi, plus a lot a san shou drills, the way I learned to play that style was more extented and a bit more tense than what ive been studying for the last six years, which is family style, the way Ive been taught now it a lot more 'loose" and not as extended"

Which is how we play our forms as well because we are mix of Hung Sing and Chan Family. If you want to see how my Sifu moves go to the Southern Kung Fu Video thread and look for Mak Fai, Won Hop Kuen.

, Ive felt both sides, Ive sparred with people of both branches, and Im speaking from expericence on the issue.

For some reason it seems like you are assuming that I haven’t sparred very much. I don’t know where you getting that from? I’ve been practicing CLF and Chen Taiji for 10 years, so I’ve had my fair share of contact in both Tui Sau and San Sau.

From the get go in the hung sind, we played with contact on parter drills, and there was a lot more external jing going on, when I began studying with my Sifu now, he focused a LOT on building up through ChiGong first, and it took a longer time to get the contact thing going.

Both sides are correct, both are efective, both lead to the same place.

I think they can both lead to the same place but it depends on the intelligence and persistence of the practitioner.

[Fu-Pow]

Here’s something written to me by Howard Choy from Sydney Hung Sing Gwoon opn another forum. In case you don’t know he is a disciple of Chen Yong Fa and Chen Xiao Wang, the famous Chen Taiji master.

Enjoy:

As for Chen style Taiji and CLF, I can tell you from my own experience, anyone can achieve mastery of Kung Fu through either one or both systems, because at the higher levels, there is really no quantitative or qualitative differences to speak about, at least in theory. But in practice, there are many factors affecting a student’s learning process and some people attributed these factors erroneously to stylistic determinism, whereas in fact, they are personal and circumstantial in most cases.

LiLoong’s earlier comment about a relaxed shoulder is a good case in point. A proper CLF technique does the same thing as a proper Chen Taiji and a “tofu” shoulder is only effective only if there is a “steel spring” inside it (try to do a sow chui or fajing without a tofu shoulder outside and a steel spring inside and it won’t work). When it looks “external” externally, then it has “internal” internally and when it looks “internal” externally then it has “external” internally, if you know what I mean.

I started my MA training not with CLF but with Yang Taiji because at the time when I was 15, I can only find a Taiji teacher in Sydney, Sifu Li Iuling, Mater Chen Yongfa and Master Chen Xianwang (CLF and Chen Taiji) came much later. I learned a lot from my teachers and they were not whether it is external or internal, CLF or Taiji, that changed me, it was my own effort and their experience and their generosity that helped made the difference.

The bottom line is you can choose any one of the hundreds of MA styles whether external or internal and you can reach the top if you have the right conditions and the right teachers, The differences between internal and external is only one of definition and attitude and not in practice. In real life, we have to master both the yin and the yang to be an expert of anything worthwhile doing.

[bigdoing]

fu ppw,

never said you didnt have any fighting experience, and didnt mean to imply it.

I was just stating that Ive tried both, sides, that was just to let you know I wasnt just talking out of my ass.

Some interesting words by howard choy. kind of funny term “tofu” shoulder.

thanks,

Take care.

bryan.

[T_Cunningham]

@Fu-Pow

I like most of the forms. I see huge similarities in how we do the form vs. how other branches do them. The Chan Family forms seem to follow good body mechanics. They keep a good structure and don’t over extend the chest.

One thing I don’t like is that they don’t show as much crispness in the moves it almost looks too loose to the point of being sloppy. I see more of a Northern influence in there forms also which leads some people to believe they are wushu-ized. I don’t think so though, I think that is how they are meant to be played.

Its interesting that their Siu Mui Fah is so different from ours. While I recognize all of the movements in their Siu Mui Fah I don’t know any form that has them in quite the same order.

FP

You should see huge similarities between ALL the branches of CLF. After all, it’s CLF. You will also see differences based on many things, not the least of them being body type and the preferences of the instructor and student.

As with the your previous comment about Buk Sing CLF, the same error in judgement has been made here. You saw a small fraction of the thousands of Buk Sing and Chan Family practitioners performing, yet you have made a sweeping generalization about the branches. What is your litmus test of how things “should” be done? Are you an expert on the different branches? Techniques can be done in a number of ways. Initially, you are taught things at a basic level, and as your experience and knowledge increase, you learn varitions and more advanced application. This knowledge should bring about a profound change in how you perform your forms. It isn’t “artistic license” it’s true knowledge and experience.

Please be advised this comes purely from the perspective of offering advice to another CLF brother. When speaking of other styles on an open forum, you should avoid negative adjectives such as those that you’ve used. Even though you might not intend to be insulting, others might not see it the same way. I think you’ve already become very familiar with this. I’m not sure if the issue is inexperience or outright pomposity, but it would be best if you consult with your sifu before posting in such a fashion. Remember, you represent him and his school. We should be showing unity instead of posting divisive commentary.

One final point and I’ll speak no more on this issue. Video isn’t always the best medium to judge quality or skill. These things are best experienced in person. See the horse up close, check the waist, test the bridge, feel the power.

Cheers,

Todd
www.clfsd.com

[Fu-Pow]

@T. Cunningham

You should see huge similarities between ALL the branches of CLF. After all, it’s CLF. You will also see differences based on many things, not the least of them being body type and the preferences of the instructor and student.

I’ve seen CLF done so differently that it might as well be a different style.

As with the your previous comment about Buk Sing CLF, the same error in judgement has been made here. You saw a small fraction of the thousands of Buk Sing and Chan Family practitioners performing, yet you have made a sweeping generalization about the branches. What is your litmus test of how things “should” be done? Are you an expert on the different branches? Techniques can be done in a number of ways. Initially, you are taught things at a basic level, and as your experience and knowledge increase, you learn varitions and more advanced application. This knowledge should bring about a profound change in how you perform your forms. It isn’t “artistic license” it’s true knowledge and experience.

I think you’re reading too much into what I post. It’s just an opinion based on my own experience of what constitutes good CLF. People can choose to agree with me or disagree.

Please be advised this comes purely from the perspective of offering advice to another CLF brother. When speaking of other styles on an open forum, you should avoid negative adjectives such as those that you’ve used. Even though you might not intend to be insulting, others might not see it the same way. I think you’ve already become very familiar with this.

Personally, just because we both practice CLF doesn’t make us “brothers.” We just happen to practice the same art. There are tens of thousands of CLF practitioners worldwide. Do you think that we’re all going to get along or see things the same way? Or like each other? Or share the same values?

From what I’ve seen on this forum there are some CLF practitioners that are complete morons. Do I really want to be associated with those people just because we both happen to practice the same style of kung fu?

I’m not sure if the issue is inexperience or outright pomposity, but it would be best if you consult with your sifu before posting in such a fashion. Remember, you represent him and his school. We should be showing unity instead of posting divisive commentary.

Well thanks for the advice. Why don’t you check with YOUR Sifu and see if its OK to tell me to check with my Sifu. :rolleyes: This is 21st century America…not 18th century China… the only thing I check with my Sifu about is forms and fighting.

One final point and I’ll speak no more on this issue. Video isn’t always the best medium to judge quality or skill. These things are best experienced in person. See the horse up close, check the waist, test the bridge, feel the power.

That’s the best point you’ve made thus far. However, we are interacting in a visual medium. Therefore, that’s all that I can really comment on. If you don’t want people to comment on your forms then don’t put up video…pure and simple.

I put my videos up for people to watch. I got some very good feedback which I took to heart and some feedback that I didn’t agree with. But I have a thick enough skin that I don’t get my panties in a bunch over the slightest criticism.

My fellow “CLF brothers” should learn to do the same if they want to there kung fu to be taken seriously…or else they just end up looking like they have major insecurities.

FP