Hello all
Dose all wingchun schools use sashes to show rank? I remember reading something about knots sowen into something or another to show rank instead of sashes..Dose anyone know what is done in vietnam or mainland china or India?
any and all info would be welcome.
sincererly. C.A.G.
When I studied Shorinryu in Okinawa in the 60’s there were only white and black belts. Colored belts were developed for the western market. Traditionally there were no ranks in Chinese martial arts. Seniority was based on the Confucianism. An example would be Sifu (teacher), Sihing (older brother), Sidai (younger brother), etc. It was more familial. Westerners are so used to hearing about ranks that some Chinese MA schools created ranks in order to compete with the Japanese/Korean MA schools. Most people will ask what rank are you regardles of what style you study. There are different schools of thought on ranking systems. My stand is sort of in the middle. On one side, ranks can help give a student a sense of accomplishment. Conversly, sometimes it’s only about the rank and ego. Then there is the problem of “buying” rank in some schools. I happen to belong to an Association that uses rank. The Japanese and Korean ranks are usually similiar with a few exceptions. The Chinese MA schools that use rank may be completly opposite of each other. It’s simply a matter of preference.
I dont pay attention to sash or belt colors. Wore a red sash when I began and 27 wing chun years later I still wear a red when i want to and if I can find it- even though I have taught a black belt or two in shotokan, tkd and kenpo among other cross overs from other arts.
Westerners like their merit badges.
I prefer the CMA way of keeping track of who began when- which Phil mentioned-familial relationships which has no direct relationship to comparative skills.
After all on a given day anyone can be humbled.
No, not all wing chun schools use sashes.
Many do. Mine doesn’t.
Most of the schools I have seen in Hong Kong do not.
Some dont use sashes or belts, but have small badges.
Of the two of schools I visited in mainland china last year, neither had ranking sashes.
my school also doesnt have sashes. it’s quite easy to tell whose your superior as soon as you touch their hands 
this means more and is a better indicator of skill than a pretty sash anyways.
There is no tradition of belt/sash or any kind of visible ranking in Wing Chun, or most TCMA. In the West, in modern times, some have adopted it as part of their model, but even then, there are no universal standards, criteria, or indicia.
Be All You Can Be
Don’t listen to the naysayers. I’m prepared to provide you with any certification of rank you desire—for a small consideration, of course.
Own your own authentic certificate of rank signed by whatever name you choose.
How does “Grandmaster” sound, signed by Bruce Lee? Hmmm? How about “Professor” with the appellation of any university president you want?
Seriously, this is just as factual as most MA masters’ claims. Why should you be held to a higher standard?
Regard$,
Darn, John, that I-Mac is payin for itself already!!!
Originally posted by reneritchie
Darn, John, that I-Mac is payin for itself already!!!
Hi Rene,
It beats the hand-drawn certificates that I used to give out.
BTW, I forgot to mention that a grandmaster ranking from me is as valid as any in Wing Chun, especially in the Yip Man lineage.
Regards,
rank is such a tough issue
“ranking” if nonexistant just becomes a “your sihing must be higher than you” thing
“ranking” is existant means nothing if it differs from school to school, as it depends on how good your school is and not compared to all schools in your style
“ranking” across many schools and under one family of a style leads to commercialization and mcdojos syndrome
“ranking” for younger practioners such as toddlers and babies and preteens leads to a meaningless rank
there is no solution. only confusion. 
John’s rank specific certs are worth their weight in silver.
Colored belts were developed for the western market.
I was under the impression that Jigoro Kano came up with the belt system as part of his effort to make martial arts a part of an overall self-improvement curriculum. (He introduced it into Japanese schools, yes?)
If that’s the case, then it wasn’t developed solely for western sensibilities. Instead, it would have been developed to meet the psychological needs of various personalities types. The person doing judo as part of a self actualization process would potentially use many different measuring sticks. For some, success in competition. For others, they wouldn’t bother, preferring to simply learn. But for others still, the incremental achieving of prescribed goals would be a useful part of the learning process.
Now, I’m not going to argue that the system hasn’t gotten derailed. Red belts with white stripes. Eight-year-old black belts. And so on. It’s all a bit much.
Stuart B.
Originally posted by yuanfen
John’s rank specific certs are worth their weight in silver.
Hi Joy,
Thanks for the plug. The orders are rolling in. Operators are standing by for the calls.
If someone needs a title or a rank to shore up their status, I question their skills. The familalial terms just represent the order in the “family,” not the skill of the holder, except of course for sifu, which should be used selectively IMHO only for YOUR sifu, not Wing Chun teachers in general, since it does not represent a rank.
Regards,
did anyone ever compile a list of how many sifus now, or “grandmasters” Yip Man openly acknowledged as giving consent to teach?
Did William Cheung ever receive an OPEN consent to teach by Yip Man? Not “grandmaster” status but the blessing to teach in general
What about Leung Ting?
before anybody flames it’s a simple yes or no question and not about who’s lineage is superior. thanks.
Ranks can have their uses, specifically for ensuring a measured and uniform progression through the system in terms of skills attained and material covered.
Maybe if Yip Man had used a method of ensuring same material covered, cohesiveness of message and skill levels achieved between his students our little WC family wouldnt be quite so dysfunctional and we’d all be singing from the same song sheet now.
Bigger base , higher pyramid.
Just my humble opinion…
Originally posted by apoweyn
I was under the impression that Jigoro Kano came up with the belt system as part of his effort to make martial arts a part of an overall self-improvement curriculum. (He introduced it into Japanese schools, yes?)
The system that Kano used only had 2 ranks. White & Black, he copied that idea from the swimming teams of the time where the “higher kids” had a black string tied around their waist.
Most system only had a curriculum till 5th Dan, all ranks above that were awarded on merits, contributions to the art, etc. NO limit at 10th Dan though, he simply never awarded anything higher. 
AFAIK, the kyu ranks and coloured belts did not get added till after WW II.
Kids BB and Ladies BB I think were only added in the 70’s.
There is a VERY good article written by j. Cunningham on this topic on the web, but I haven’t got it bookmarked.
Will look on E-Budo for the link.
Thanks Taiji Monkey.
So what did ranking look like prior to Kano’s black/white system? Were there no white or black belts before that?
Just curious.
Stuart B.
ppl automatically assume the person with “higher” rank is “better” though I don’t understand the connection. What is “better”? Person with higher rank may just have been there longer or learned more theories. Ppl in grade 11 learn more than ppl in gradeschool but it does not mean they are smarter not necessarily have more knowledge.
If “better” is more knowledge of the system then maybe that will do. Yet isn’t part of “knowing” a system well also include being able to USE IT WELL? From what I’ve seen on here it seems as if in Wing Chun that is hard to gauge. Unless you spar all out how can this be judged?
So rank is so theoretical it’s pretty hard to see it as measuring anything but length of a time in the given system for the most part. Rank is too often seen as better fighting ability.
Problems with rank are also apparent now more than in the old days as students expect to “move” somewhere after a given period of time. Keep someone who is not up to par from going up a level long enough and they will leave or go elsewhere. Conversely, the sifus are often tempted to drag teaching on longer than needed to milk more money off a student.
In order for the rank system to work it should be seen as a system similar to the education system. Higher grades mean higher knowledge and greater difficulty and more experience, but not necessarily “better” in the sense that ppl now associate with belt/color levels.
Originally posted by apoweyn
[B]Thanks Taiji Monkey.
So what did ranking look like prior to Kano’s black/white system? Were there no white or black belts before that?
Just curious.
Stuart B. [/B]
There was NO ranking as such.
People studied and were given certificates/licences:
1.) Menkyo = Teaching licence
2.) Menkyo Kaiden = Full transmission.
3.) Soke = Founder/Linage holder usually acompanied with the “secret” scrolls that held the full knowledge of the style. There can never be more than 1 Soke per Japanese style/system.
Only Menkyo Kaiden holders and above were entitled to make changes to the system and/or form their own new style.
Again there were no universal rules or guidelines, just as there are none now as to what rank x means in style y.
Belts or Ranking in Wing Chun
Greetings all, wow, I think after finding this site, I look forward to reading the responses as much as touching hands with other journeymen, so nothing else matters for the moment; So many intelligent responses here, so you tell me what is more important a nice black belt or a black belt with a diamond studded buckle to hold your pants up? Hell ive recently seen Judo Gene Labelle here in Germany with a Pink Gi, lol, does it really matter? I would think the quality training is more important, dont you? The uniform is merely cosmetic. For kids I understand incentives but wow, some people really go over the edge with this rank stuff, you know ive touched hands with many so-called black sash’s. Truly one can learn a lot from someone coming into your school that has trained as a boxer for a few years, dont forget to tighten up your black belt as he is waxing your surfboard with combinations especially if you train in chaos and narrow mindedness; Do we teach as businessmen or women where a lot is needed to keep students in your school, be it, quality training, or “Blind-folded Chi Sao demonstrations, “lol” with your assistant instructor”, or incentives such as “money” promotions etc etc, but really, how much is enough? Ask yourself what are we as Wing Chun stylist really attempting to gain as instructors teaching a very rich historical martial art and whats the name now days? Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, Ving Tzun, etc etc whatever the flavor of the month is of those individuals with the catchy names are? I think I will start making certificates for a 29 level Wing Chun System, hahahaha, I think I will make a lot of money, that way, the more levels the more test, and so on and so on …Truly lets get back to what was the true intention of creating this system. How about we as individuals with differences come together since our system is relatively young to promote growth and harmony which only enriches this close range combative martial system. I thought the truth of this artform was in simplicity. Is it so simple to have 50 levels of a system with only 3 hand-forms?
Side not: recently while training in the orient I have seen my peers training in Wing chun for over 22 years with Air Jordans and shorts on, and bare chested training with new students. Hmmmm, isnt that a kick in the ego!! I really dont think that black sash goes with Jordans and yellow shorts.
Im taking applications for my new 29 Level Ving Ctsun System…I need a new Ferrari!!!