questions about tan tui

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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1

Dear all,
Does anyone know what are the reasons behind:

a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you. You then bend forward and bring both of you arms toward your chest. You then swinging both of your arms out, while you are in a bow stance. I think it is road 3.
At first I thought it is a double groin strikes, but the position you are in make it impossible to be double groin strikes.
What is the purpose of this move?

b) Are most of the kicks aim for the knee and waist?

c) If your jump kick missed, what is the defence you would use when your opponet does a stop hit (kick) to your chest, just as you are about to land?
(road 8 or 7)

  1. I think in some of the tan tui movements, you deliberately rotate your forearm. What is the purpose of rotating your forearm?

  2. In all the roads you start off:
    you stand straight and feet together.
    your left hand is a straight fist
    Your right hand (palm) underneath your left armpit

What is the purpose of this movement?

Sorry I cannot find the link to the web site ,where I got the pictures of the tan tui sequences. I could not tell from the pictures, what are the purpose of those moves. Therefore, I need your help.

Thank you very much
Hitman

2

a. there are variations between schools- this doesn’t sound like the third road to me- it sounds more like #9 which I was shown as you’re countering your opponent’s chin na counter.

b. Yes - but the springing leg refers to the knee kick that’s repeated a billion times throughout the form.

c. You’re screwed.

  1. wrist control (seriously)

  2. Watch Bruce Lee’s first fight on the island with Bob Wall in Enter the Dragon. I’ve also been shown that move as a counter to a opposite arm single wrist grab.

3

[QUOTE=Hitman;871736]Dear all,
Does anyone know what are the reasons behind:

a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you. You then bend forward and bring both of you arms toward your chest. You then swinging both of your arms out, while you are in a bow stance. I think it is road 3.
At first I thought it is a double groin strikes, but the position you are in make it impossible to be double groin strikes.
What is the purpose of this move?

b) Are most of the kicks aim for the knee and waist?

c) If your jump kick missed, what is the defence you would use when your opponet does a stop hit (kick) to your chest, just as you are about to land?
(road 8 or 7)

  1. I think in some of the tan tui movements, you deliberately rotate your forearm. What is the purpose of rotating your forearm?

  2. In all the roads you start off:
    you stand straight and feet together.
    your left hand is a straight fist
    Your right hand (palm) underneath your left armpit

What is the purpose of this movement?

Sorry I cannot find the link to the web site ,where I got the pictures of the tan tui sequences. I could not tell from the pictures, what are the purpose of those moves. Therefore, I need your help.

Thank you very much
Hitman[/QUOTE]

These are the most important things about tan tui and CMA in general.

a) this is a throw really it is from tong bei, you swing to avoid incoming strike, then as their strike is still in motion, you use their momentum against them and upset their balance and tip them over. It’s a basic move found in all tong bei drills.

b) yes, kicks are more than kicks, they are extensions of your body that trip the other person, you like is wedge.

c) done this many times, you yield back and swing your arm under their kick and scoop it up as you stand up, throwing the person back as they flip upside down.

  1. rotating the forearm is what keeps you from getting it broken as someone strikes. If you leave it out without rotating, you are inviting a straight down axe on to your bone and it will break. Also, rotating the arm forces the incoming strike to rotate out of range without hurting you. This is a foundamental movement in CMA and all styles do this in some way or another. It is a variation of drilling.

  2. That is only done in modern versions of tan tui, like the 12 tan tui. It’s just to keep you from wandering your arm from where it should be.

Purpose? If someone grabs your arm, you can wipe their hand off.

4

More questions

Dear all,
Thank you.

Tan tui resemble western fencing, choy lee fut kung fu and other kung fu styles.

  1. You are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you.

a)This movement resemble the lunge used in western fencing. Therefore, it should also containing the same weakness as in western fencing. The weakness is the counter attack/ stop hit to your knee and chest. What is the best defence to avoid thoses stop hit?

b) What is the purpose of putting one hand behind your back, while your other hand in the front does the attack? In western fencing the back hand is for balance.
Does this also apply to movement 1?
or is there a secret movement of leaving your hand behind your back?

Thank you

5

One hand in front with the other in back as you put it, teaches you the body mechanics, for the jik kuen. Once you understand the mechanics,the open bow stance (as opposed to the closed bow, in this case, the kwa is open) the hip and shoulder rotation and the extension of the body and arms, and the coiling/whipping of the spine,then you can shorten it up and bring your rear hand into the guard position. It is a tool. There is a Hebei Hsing-Yi Tan-Tuei that illustrates this.
“From the large, comes the small”

Rotating of the arm comes after the strike. Yes, it can be a locking maneuver, it can be counter locking maneuver, or it can be a running hand, which means, if the strike is blocked, it can circle around and continue to strike.

The hand under the arm as it strikes can be a simultaneous trap/deflect and strike. IMO using one hand to peel away, and then striking is counterproductive-too many movements, when simply hitting would suffice. Too many people get into the block, block, block, then hit mentality when they play application. IMO, TCMA was never meant to be practiced with such an inefficient mentality.

6

Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.

7

trying to think of something whitty and quirky to say but i cant think of it right now.
shoot. oh well.

8

actually…

from a Mantis perspective- the back hand is an overexaggeration of a grab (diu sau). Say you’re in the starting position where you have your right hand extended to your right and your left is in the armpit- your feet are together-

an attacker on your left throws a right foot forward right straight punch- you grab his right with your right hand and simultaneously backfist him with your left (route 1 movement 1).

9

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871889]Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.

It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.

In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.

Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know Sal, that sounds pretty far fetched, anyone that has ever fought more than one person knows that the worse you can do is try to strike two people that the same time.

10

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;871945]I don’t know Sal, that sounds pretty far fetched, anyone that has ever fought more than one person knows that the worse you can do is try to strike two people that the same time.[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s what’s been told to me by various people over the years.

The back person is hit on the way, as you are striking the first person with your right punch, your left fist is swinging out to the left at the same time and hits anyone that happens to be sneaking up to you.

But that’s only looking at striking.

If you look at the moves as a take down, your left hand has grabbed the person by the back of the shirt near the neck and is pulling them down over your knee while your right hand is punching/pushing them forward, further upsetting their balance.

This same application is found in Ba Bu Lian Huan set of Shaolin.

11

many of the strikes in Tan Tuei are preceded by large sweeping movents. In Southern boxing as well as Northern, these are clearng movements that control the opponent’s arm and body and whip them into the strike.
If you are leaning forward into the bow, and striking foward as well as to the rear, there is no connection or power in the rearward strike. If you are in horse, possibly, but still not likely. Usually techniques are in forms that have been very successful in confrontations. This application would be a highly specialized situation. How often are your two attackers dozing, while standing at your sides?
Better yet, try it and tell me how it works for you. The best litmus test is pressure testing.
Also, it is difficult without seeing the movement to try to hypothesize the application. Are there any clips showing this sequence?

12

Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption.
Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the “uber secret” to prove one has the “real” MA.
Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes. it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.
I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.

13

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;872052]Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption.
Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the “uber secret” to prove one has the “real” MA.
Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes. it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.
I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.[/QUOTE]

Really the applications in this form are pretty basic and straightforward… if one has a teacher that’s actually showing them rather than trying to figure out the applications by looking at the sequential pics that KFM published last year. It’s not that hard and it’s often one of the first forms that’s taught in a Chin Wu line school like 7* Mantis or Eagle Claw.

Hitman would be best served by looking up the Mantis guys that post here from his side of the pond to show him the apps. There are several that post here from the isles.

14

Best way to see application is simply to do the form against an opponent.

I have people hold my wrists and then to the form EXACTLY without altering things.
I do the form with a staff, sword, knife, and spear and gain application insights that way too.
I do the form as takedown and throws.
I do the form as scissor cutting moves.
I do the form as simple punching and kicking just for exercise.

15

[QUOTE=TenTigers;871961]many of the strikes in Tan Tuei are preceded by large sweeping movents. In Southern boxing as well as Northern, these are clearng movements that control the opponent’s arm and body and whip them into the strike.
[/quote]

Correct. :slight_smile:

16

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;872052]Trying to interpret forms is tricky at best and is based mostly on assumption or even presumption… [/quote]

Horse puckey.

Bunkai and himitsu are things that, at least how they relate to J/OMA, tend to be used as the “uber secret” to prove one has the “real” MA.

When they happen to be right.

Sure the majority of down blocks are actually hammer fist strikes.

No, they’re not.

it makes sense, but I still think that, more often than not, we are grasping at straws when it comes to trying to figure out what a moves really means in a form.

That is a process that is something your SiFu is supposed to teach you.
At first you learn applications & their derivation by rote.
SEEing how they are derived is supposed to teach you to properly derive applications on your own… eventually.

I mean, how m any times does a specific move from a form have a better application VS a certain attack than just a basic counter?
Not very often.

I strongly disagree with that statement. :eek:
In fact, I think it is just the opposite. :smiley:

17

Horse puckey.

Horse don’t actually puke that much. :smiley:

When they happen to be right.

When is right.

No, they’re not.

Yes they are.

That is a process that is something your SiFu is supposed to teach you.
At first you learn applications & their derivation by rote.
SEEing how they are derived is supposed to teach you to properly derive applications on your own… eventually.

I strongly disagree with that statement.
In fact, I think it is just the opposite.

The basics, the core, are what matters, I don’t see anything going anywhere with out them.
Advanced principles need a solid base to flow from.
Without a stable “launch platform” the most advanced of moves have nothing on them other than fluff.
I have no issues with advanced principles, there are many, even advanced type of training, but advanced techniques?
Not so much.

18

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;872098]Horse don’t actually puke that much. :D[/quote]

"1. puckey
Dried animal feces, typically horse, cow or bull. Often used as an expletive replacement for its more vulgar counterpart, sh*t, and often used by older generations. "

Perhaps you Canadians or your horses are confused…?

Yes they are.

If you don’t know how to recognize or use your basics, that is not my problem.

The basics, the core, are what matters, I don’t see anything going anywhere with out them.

Agreed.
Perhaps you need to find someone to re-teach them to you.

Advanced principles need a solid base to flow from.
Without a stable “launch platform” the most advanced of moves have nothing on them other than fluff.

It’s not just stability… it’s “working” basics in the sense of both the term “work” as used in physics and of the applicability of a given technique.

I have no issues with advanced principles, there are many, even advanced type of training, but advanced techniques?
Not so much.

That’s pretty much the opposite of what you said in your last 2 postings on the “wc form” thread.
The salient point is in your post #26 in which you state in a round-about manner that students need a good teacher. (but not for basics?)

“I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the “intricacies”.”

OTOH, this might just be one of your efforts at “promoting conversation”.
Whatever the case, I’m done with this.
“Results speak for themselves.”

19

"1. puckey
Dried animal feces, typically horse, cow or bull. Often used as an expletive replacement for its more vulgar counterpart, sh*t, and often used by older generations. "

Perhaps you Canadians or your horses are confused…?

LOL , yes, you are correct.

If you don’t know how to recognize or use your basics, that is not my problem.

Quite, my problem is also forgetting that on the net, you can’t tell if someone is serious or joking without smileys, my bad.

Agreed.
Perhaps you need to find someone to re-teach them to you.

I am sure it wouldn’t hurt, we call use a good reminder every so often.

It’s not just stability… it’s “working” basics in the sense of both the term “work” as used in physics and of the applicability of a given technique.

Agreed.

That’s pretty much the opposite of what you said in your last 2 postings on the “wc form” thread.
The salient point is in your post #26 in which you state in a round-about manner that students need a good teacher. (but not for basics?)

“I disagree in regards to basics and agree in regards to the “intricacies”.”

OTOH, this might just be one of your efforts at “promoting conversation”.
Whatever the case, I’m done with this.
“Results speak for themselves.”

The other thread was dealing with video instructionals and coming at them with prior similar points of refernences.
EX: you can learn the basics of BJJ if you have a solid core in Judo but the “intricacies” MAY escape you.

I always promote conversation and debate. its how we challenge the status quo, sorry if that bothers you.

Yes, results do speak for themselves, more than anything else.

20

Even though I said I was “done with this”…

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;872139]LOL , yes, you are correct.[/quote]

On one, or both, counts? :rolleyes:

Quite, my problem is also forgetting that on the net, you can’t tell if someone is serious or joking without smileys, my bad.

I think I recently noted something to the effect that “you are what you post”.

The other thread was dealing with video instructionals and coming at them with prior similar points of refernences.
EX: you can learn the basics of BJJ if you have a solid core in Judo but the “intricacies” MAY escape you.

… and you agreed with the idea that a good teacher might be needed to impart “advanced techniques”/“intricacies”. :eek:

I always promote conversation and debate. its how we challenge the status quo, sorry if that bothers you.

I have “less reason to care”, since… :cool:

Yes, results do speak for themselves, more than anything else.

It’s kinda nice for a mostly-retired SiFu to see that some of his teachings have survived for 3 more generations. :smiley: