On one, or both, counts?
No comment. 
I think I recently noted something to the effect that “you are what you post”.
Very True.
… and you agreed with the idea that a good teacher might be needed to impart “advanced techniques”/“intricacies”.
What was I thinking ???
It’s kinda nice for a mostly-retired SiFu to see that some of his teachings have survived for 3 more generations.
Traditions die hard, some because they work, some because they don’t.
Quite the paradox.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;872225]Traditions die hard, some because they work, some because they don’t.
Quite the paradox.[/QUOTE]
It even happens that some things go on to be taught to a 4th generation… etc
more question
Dear all,
a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you (plam strike). You another hand is behind you and you bend your fingers into a hook ( next to your rib).
At first I thought the hook is desgined against a front kick, while you do a plam strike to your opponent’s chest. However, when I tested it out against a friend, my wrist was in pain trying to use my hook to hold on to his foot for more than 2 seconds.
What is the reason for the hook?
Thank you very much
[QUOTE=Hitman;873579]Dear all,
a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you (plam strike). You another hand is behind you and you bend your fingers into a hook ( next to your rib).
At first I thought the hook is desgined against a front kick, while you do a plam strike to your opponent’s chest. However, when I tested it out against a friend, my wrist was in pain trying to use my hook to hold on to his foot for more than 2 seconds.
What is the reason for the hook?
Thank you very much[/QUOTE]
Can be used as a chin na move, in case someone grabs your hand when punching.
Have someone hold your wrist, close your eyes, and then do this move correctly, you’ll see that it works great to break someone’s hold.
( of course don’t close your eyes all the time, just when trying the move the first time so you are not distracted)
Downward block=downward strike=downward block…
<---- Me
[QUOTE=Hitman;873579]At first I thought the hook is desgined against a front kick, while you do a plam strike to your opponent’s chest. However, when I tested it out against a friend, my wrist was in pain trying to use my hook to hold on to his foot for more than 2 seconds.
What is the reason for the hook? [/QUOTE]
Upward hook is to catch a kick and downward hook is to catch a punch. You don’t hook your opponent’s front or side kick for more than 1/4 second. The moment that your forearm deflect his kick, you slide back your arm in about 15 degree angle (this way you pull his leg away from your body) and then use your wrist to catch his ankle (in very short period of time), you then release his leg and then enter. That fast deflecting and pulling contact will help you to enter in a much faster speed then your own entering. If you can take care his leading elbow then you will have a safe entry. If you want to hold on his leg then you can slide in and raise his leg by your elbow joint.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;873609]Downward block=downward strike=downward block…
<---- Me[/QUOTE]
If you are referring to the little exchange between Pete and I, it’s just an ongoing tease I have with him 
We both know they can be both.
a) When you are in a bow stance, with one hand in front of you and the other hand behind you. You then bend forward and bring both of you arms toward your chest. You then swinging both of your arms out, while you are in a bow stance. I think it is road 3.
At first I thought it is a double groin strikes, but the position you are in make it impossible to be double groin strikes.
What is the purpose of this move?
Tan Tui training try to stretch your body to the maximum so your punch will have the maximum reach
b) Are most of the kicks aim for the knee and waist?
Knee for offense and waist for defense.
c) If your jump kick missed, what is the defence you would use when your opponet does a stop hit (kick) to your chest, just as you are about to land?
(road 8 or 7)
Use your arms.
To smash your fist on your opponent’s instep.
What is the purpose of this movement?
Deflect and punch at the same time.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;873703]If you are referring to the little exchange between Pete and I, it’s just an ongoing tease I have with him
We both know they can be both.[/QUOTE]
Ok…gotcha… :o
I guess I’ll go and give the wife the ol’ Springing Leg.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;873742]Ok…gotcha… :o
I guess I’ll go and give the wife the ol’ Springing Leg.[/QUOTE]
Well, there goes the IP training for 24 hours !
LOL !
another question
Dear all,
There are four areas in tan tui:
Foot work
Body work
Leg work
Hand work
Is it possible for some one to explain to me the meaning of body work?
Thank you very much
How can the weak defeat the strong?"
Shen Fa - body method or body work.
This is the way that you coordinate the body to move the limbs.
So, if shifu says that your body method needs work, he would mean that the hands are moving devoid of coordination to the waist and torso.
This article of mine describes it in more detail. The interesting thing of this article are the quotes from Qing Dynasty manuscripts of kung fu.
http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/deception.htm#deceptiom
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871889]Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.
It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.
In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.
Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.[/QUOTE]
mister cazoneri is right this is exactly what it is for. also, if youhit with the forearms u have to swing really far back
also can be a habit from using the saber because u need a counterbalance and some styles are just sloppy, but the main reason is what mister cazoneri said
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871889]Chinese Moslem MA are often made for fighting multiple attackers at once.
The back hand movements has degenerated over time to become useless.
It was originally made to move so that you struck someone in back of you at the same time as in front.
In old days, Chinese Moslems were feared for the MA and so they were often attacked by multiple people. There was strong prejudice against them in some areas.
Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.[/QUOTE]
No, this is not some exotic usage, whereby students learn how to knock out two opponents, a shorter one in front and a taller one in back, at the same time. This is mental training, and it can be found in movements throughout all the long fist forms. -Adam Hsu
Namaste
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871889]Also, the movements in tan tui can be used as take down movements.[/QUOTE]
You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as “front cut” but the others are pure “striking” only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as “hip throw”. Since there is no “bending head to touch the legs” in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.
what mister salccanzeri says is right, there is training specifically for this where u hit 8 sand bags all around you
this isnt a “esoteric” explanation this is a common technique in north kung fu, “erlang climbs the mountain” “luohan carries burden” where you punch a second guy in the nuts behind u
this is a habit from using the double hammer or ax where you always swing all the way behind you to get momentum
also can be a habit of using a heavy saber for couterbalance
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;905869]You may give more credit to Tan Tui then it deserves. The Tan Tui #4 can be used as “front cut” but the others are pure “striking” only. Someone said that Tan Tui #2 can be used as “hip throw”. Since there is no “bending head to touch the legs” in #2, it will be too abstract to assume that.[/QUOTE]
I can easily, very easily, do all the rows in tan toi as "takedowns. The leg positions at the end of each movement are a clear indicator of how to do it. They are slanted for taking down an opponent. The rest of the movements are for scissoring through an opponent and unbalancing them for a takedown.
Every teacher I had has shown me how to this.
And the same is true for every long fist set I know (Shaolin, Cha Quan, etc., etc.).
Punching and kicking is just one level of usage, then comes Chin na, then comes takedowns.
I’ve done long fist sets since 1975, always was shown each level of usage.
Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don’t know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don’t see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the “intend” is missing (not enough “pulling” intend).
i learnt up to 8th road of tan tui with applications
i gotta say i didnt see it coming in use
maybe its just me but i’ve gotta ask, are the movements in tan tui exaggerations on real moves used for practise’s sake ?
like extending too far when punching to practise penetrating power
??
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;906088]Are we talking about the same Tan Tui set? The #9 and #10 are all kicks and I just don’t know how to apply it into throw. Take down (or throw) will require at least 2 points contact in opposite directions. I can see that in #4 (push hand forward and kick leg backward) but I just don’t see that in the other roads. The #8 has 2 points contact but the “intend” is missing (not enough “pulling” intend).
http://johnswang.com/Han_TanTui.WMV[/QUOTE]
Well, look, a takedown is not only a throw. A throw is one type of takedown. Any movement that causes the opponent to unbalance and fall to the ground is a takedown.
You can do that by throwing a person (using all the different classic ways of doing that), or you can do that by executing the exact same movements as a kick or punch but using those movements to scissor the opponents body and unbalance them, “a kick is not a kick, a punch is not a punch”.
Many takedowns are about stepping into an opponent’s space and unbalancing them while doing movements in reaction to being grabbed.
The beginning of Row #8 is a classic tong bei type takedown movement. You quickly move out of the way of an incoming strike, you suddenly turn back trapping their arm, and you do a parting the horse’s mane movement, which first pulls them down and then up and over.
Row #9 is classic takedown from XY and Ba Fan Shan style: your wrists are grabbed, you turn out your arms as in XY Tai (sometimes called Ostrich) which overturns your opponents arms and traps them, then you jump step through the opponents center and push them over with your palms hitting their waist/ribs area, which tips them over and down.
Done it many times.
Row #10 rushes the opponent and trips them over your extended legs as you pull them, you keep going with the movements until you overwhelm them and they fall.
Most people do not appreciate long fist because they only saw one small part of it’s use. Also, if you really study where movements in styles come from (like the research I do) you can see that tan toi absorbed movements from tong bei, Tai Zu Quan, hong quan, Mi Song Quan, and so on. When you see these movements done in those styles, you can see how they apply them.
Kicking and Punching is just the very beginning.
One can only see by doing, not thinking.