Question For lkfmdc On Traditional Chinese Styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;743606]

At last count, there are around 500 forms of wrestling around the world, from different cultures, climates, time periods and affiliated with even different religions. Many never had any chance to cross polinate with other styles, YET share many of the same movements ie throws and locks…

Because all human beings have arms, legs, a head and joints arranged in the same way, the same techniques will be developed over time. It’s that simple. There is only what works and what doesn’t[/QUOTE]

lkfmdc,
I started a new thread based on the comments that you posted to me here because they bring up some other things that I have been looking at.

You make some very good points here. Perhaps I am still somewhat brainwashed by my early induction into Chinese martail arts. We literally had it pounded into our heads that the root of all Japanese, Okinawin, and Korean fighting styes was to be found in the “superior” Chinese systems.

Although I am starting to try and widen my perspectives on this, when I look at, for example, good Shuai Chiao, and then look at good Jujutsu or good Hapkido, etc., even when I step back from my perhaps somewhat “brainwashed” perspective that I got from my early Chinese martial arts instructors, I must say that the Shuai Chiao system and techniques as a whole, seem far more complete, comprehensive, and, quite frankly, more effective than the Jujutsu or Hapkido systems. I have also noticed this when looking objectively at, let’s say as another example, good Tiger Claw Kung Fu, good Shotokan Karate, and good Tae Kwon Do. There are similaraties in all three systems, but the Tiger Claw system seems again to be more complete, comprehensive, and more effective.

You have mentioned that your early background was in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, among other things. You have also mentioned that your background in various Chinese styles is extensive, under several different teachers. Looking back on it all now, as someone who is now more into the MMA world, do you see major flaws in the idea that traditional Chinese styles are generally superior to other fighting styles?

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shuai chiao has no ground work. jujutsu does. they both have striking and locking. Why does SC seem superior to you? shuai chiao has what, 40 throws? Judo has 67. including the ground stuff, there are 99 techniques. that doesn’t include the strikes.

the thing about good karate is that it is hard to come by. One of the better fighters I know was born and raised in kumamoto. pure karate guy, but it doesn’t look like the karate we are used to seeing. He sidesteps a lot and is very fluid.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;744313]shuai chiao has what, 40 throws? Judo has 67.[/QUOTE]
SC has more than 40 principles and each principle has more than 10 throws that will make SC have over 400 different throws. Just for the “Bei - blocking” principle, there are more than 10 different throws for that.

  1. Head lock leg blocking
  2. Reverse head lock leg blocking
  3. Waist control leg blocking
  4. Side door control leg blocking
  5. Upward arm circle leg blocking
  6. Downward arm circle leg blocking
  7. Foot rolling leg blocking
  8. Deadman head lock leg blocking
  9. Front cut leg blocking
  10. Mai Huai leg blocking
  11. Arm cracking leg blocking
  12. Hand blocking
  13. …
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so then SC has bout 300 more throws than Judo?

just curious, i dont know either.

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I think perhaps there are 400 or more variations of SC throws, but Judo could say the same.

There are a billion ways to throw people, depending on all the factors of the situation, but there are only so many principles invovled in those billion throws.

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ah… i was wondering how many differnt ways there really are to throw people.

thats a crazy amount of throws to remember

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;744353]I think perhaps there are 400 or more variations of SC throws, but Judo could say the same.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly, ippon seoi from a sleeve grip, ippon seoi from a lapel grip, drop ippon from a sleeve grip, drop i…

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There are more than 61 different categories (some share the same principle) of throws in SC:

Those 400 different throws all required different kind of set up. Some of the “finishing” moves may look similiar but the “entering” moves are complete different.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;744357]There are more than 61 different categories (some share the same principle) of throws in SC:

[/QUOTE]

Dude, that’s a menu:(

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In short, NO, there is nothing “special” about Chinese martial art. If you look hard enough and find the right stuff, you can find the same qualities in arts as diverse as Japanese, Korean, French, Filipino, Russian, Brazilian, Native North American, African, etc…

There is only the “good” and the “bad”, there is only what works and what doesn’t…

But it is also a matter of “flavor”

I’ll disagree with 7 Star for a minute, neither Shuai Jiao nor Judo is better, and even listing what kind of techniques or how many techniques and such doesn’t get you any closer to the heart of the matter

Shuai Jiao has as many throws as Judo. There are more throws in Judo than the Kodokan officially recognizes as well. The real difference is that the throws most commony trained and used in Chang lineage Shuai Jiao is different than in Kodokan Judo… but Chan Tai San’s mongolian Shuai Jiao (in his Lama) had different “go to” throws than the Chan lineage

Shuai Jiao doesn’t have “ne waza” like Judo, it works to a different end, neither better nor worse… read that again - neither better nor worse.

Shuai Jiao has one assumption, Judo has another

An intelligent fighter should study both assumptions, and get what they can from it…

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo (oh wow, watch this turn into a flame war)… but it is different because Carlos and Helio had different assumptions than Count Koma.

I’ve learned Mongolian Shuai Jiao from Chan Tai San, Chang lineage Shuai Jiao from Jeng Hsin Ping, Judo from Mark Tripp and John Saylor, some sambo, some greco from Randy Couture (but tailered especially for MMA), my curriculum at NY San Da is not identical to any of these … it is an amalgamation. But someone who studied with the same people might have a different amalgamation!!!

This is going towad another thread entirely, which is CHOICES…

I’ve created a curriculum, a system if you will, from various influences. I had to make choices… what to teach, how to teach, when to teach… it isn’t always, in fact it is SELDOM about “right vs wrong”… it is about larger things than that

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And then Knifefighter says…

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squeak squeak squeak

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lkfmdc,
So basically you have developed your own style based on the compilation of your influances?

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;744482]lkfmdc,
So basically you have developed your own style based on the compilation of your influances?[/QUOTE]

If you think your teacher teaches exactly the same stuff, exactly the same way, his teacher did you are kidding yourself. If your teacher ever studied anything else (chances are he did) then that will have an influence on what he teaches you. That’s reality…

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I’m not saying theaches the same way, but if someone were to be teaching me Sun style Bagua, I’d expect to be getting the Sun style Bagua system, not a mix of Sun style Bagua and Northern Mantis, plus abit of Hung Gar taught all as the same thing.

If he offered courses in Bauga, then mantis or Hung Gar seperately, that’s different, and if he got some good teaching ideas from his Hung Gar teacher, and applied them to the way he teaches his Bagua, that is fine too, so long as he’s not claiming to teach me Sun Style Bagua specifically, but really teaching a hybred style of his own.

HOW you teach, is different that What you teach. When I teach (when I actually do teach), I rarely teach the same way twice. In fact, I don’t allways teach the same way inside of the same class. My teaching style changes depending on my mood, or the goals of my students, and even thier own personalities.

What I teach is generally the same things, in the same general order though.

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Thanks for your last response lkfmdc. Again, you made many interesting and good points.

I am trying to wrap my head around accepting the fact that, perhaps, even after all of these years of my being so sure, perhaps even the more esoteric Chinese styles are not the “Be all and end all” of all fighting arts after all. It’s a very tough pill for me to try and swallow though.

Being that you were such a close disciple of the late Chan Tai San, I would imagine that you were exposed to, and taught some of the deeper, more internal aspects of Lama Pai. Weren’t there aspects of this deeper, internal energy training that gave instruction in the use of internal energy in fighting that went beyond what most other more external oriented styles teach? Or, again, looking back on it from where you stand now, do you feel that perhaps these kinds of internal teachings are over-rated when it comes to actual fighting in reality?

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“internal” isn’t about bloxing up chickes with Chi blasts are 30 yards…

I suggest you read the intro to Sun Lu Tang’s book, a great history of the term “internal”, what it is, what it isn’t, why the term came about, etc

Internal is about understanding body mechanics and making the most of that knowledge. You can see similar “internal” in many things if the person has skill and is high level

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;744685]“internal” isn’t about bloxing up chickes with Chi blasts are 30 yards…

I suggest you read the intro to Sun Lu Tang’s book, a great history of the term “internal”, what it is, what it isn’t, why the term came about, etc

Internal is about understanding body mechanics and making the most of that knowledge. You can see similar “internal” in many things if the person has skill and is high level[/QUOTE]

I realize that “internal” isn’t about shooting chi blasts for 30 yards. But that does not negate the fact that some high level internal martial artists have developed an internal energy that is, for lack of a better word, “psychic” in nature, and goes way beyond body mechanics. I understand the “body mechanics” side of internal, but there are sides to internal training that do go well beyond this. I have been hit by it, and it’s like getting an electric shock that knocks you on your ass.

I have a friend in Tiger Claw, someone I’ve known for years who has no reason to deceive me. I have seen him just lightly place, and leave his hand on a ceramic roof tile. And without raising his hand back up again, the tile cracked. Of course, those reading this who did not see this have every right to say “Yeah, sure, whatever!”, and that’s fine. I can’t really blame anyone for saying this if they didn’t see it, or didn’t know and trust the person that they saw do it. But I KNOW he did it, because I saw it, and I do know and trust him. And this points to something well beyond just body mechanics, although I do realize that they are a large part of certain types of internal training as well. The kind of ability that my friend displayed has more to do with mind intent, and developing a strong current of internal energy through meditation.

I know that there are many stories and claims about this type of internal energy training that are highly exaggerated, if not completely fabricated. But again, in my experience, that doesn’t negate the fact that there is a reality side to this kind of energy training as well. Are you saying that you don’t feel that there is any reality to this type of energy training?

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Internal is a rather specific TYPE of body mechancis really. There is a small number of systems that use these. It’s like and expansion, contraction motion of the core body similar to an accordian.

It can be soft, or hard, relaxed, or tension. It can be done with coiling and twisting Like Bagua, or more direct like Hsing I.

In the clip below, watch how the master’s spin moves, and and watch how his hips move in conjunciton with his spine, and limbs. Notice how the back never arches, and the tailbone is tucked through the entire motion. One thing moves, everything moves the expanding, contracting motion defines. That is what is meant by internal body mechanics. It is a desively different method of movement and power generation comapred to the external styles.

You see this in other styles besides the big three as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxByDCdC64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTy00zNttWk

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Thanks for the clips Royal Dragon. They certainly show a good example of the “body state” type of internal training that you and lkfmdc are describing. I am aware of this type of training, and certainly see it’s merit, and martial strength.

However, no one seems to be addressing the type of internal training that has more to do with mind intent, and pure energy flow, as I mentioned in my last response to lkfmdc.

Again, as I stated before, although many have exaggerated and even falsified claims of this kind of internal power, that does not negate the reality of it’s existance.

Are there others here who have either experienced, or trained in this more mind orientated, meditative type of internal energy training?