However, no one seems to be addressing the type of internal training that has more to do with mind intent, and pure energy flow, as I mentioned in my last response to lkfmdc.
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Mind intent (Yi) exists in all skilled execution of technique. There is nothing “internal” about it. Boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, jiu jitsu, etc all have “Yi”… but we’ve hit a road block because, honestly, I don’t know how to explain “Yi” to you over the internet. I can show it to you, but I can’t describe it.
Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of “internal” in anything that is not staged or pre arranged…
Becuase what he’s looking for isn’t Yi? I’ve seen it many times, every time I work with an advance student or black belt in fact. But it doesn’t look like what Hollywood makes it out to be.
Yi is the difference between a pretty spin kick that is useless, and an amazing one that hits were you want it, as hard as you want it to, every time.
I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.
I am not talking about energies. I dont know if I should even bother to get into this stuff on this forum, but if nobody else can come up with legit examples I will.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;745346]I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.[/QUOTE]
There are many moves that CMA has taken it’s training to the extreme. Such as:
Head locking
Elbow cracking
Tearing
Combing hair
Scooping
Robbing
Sticky
Twisting
…
It’s the training methods (not the sole form) that make CMA unique from other foreign arts.
A simple example is to put a heavy steel ball in a hole and trying to use your foot to “scoop” it out of that hole. If you have spent enough years with that steel ball, you can almost scoop anybody’s foot off the ground. A CMA master had spent years on that training. During the Chinese culture revolution he was sent to farm land for hard labor. Some workers there tried to be bossy on him, without saying a word, he swept his leg toward a fence pole and broke that fence pole in half. Those workers left him along since then.
Just like the Muay Thai guys kick on banana trees. Every arts have their special training methods and that make different arts unique.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;745346]I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere.
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Great, NAME SOMETHING…
I’ve got a 2nd Dan in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from a direct student of Hwang Kee. I have the same rank in Hapkido. I have a black belt in Shotokan. I boxed starting around 6. I’ve done Judo, Sambo, Greco Roman and Filipino martial arts all to some extent. You probably already know my CMA background
What exists in CMA that I can not find some place else?
I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.
I don’t think its intent is to be elitist but this statement is just not true without any emprical proof. There are vast systems of martial combat and physical culture out there and to think that one holds sway over a certain principle without exhausting all the research is not wise.
I realize that “internal” isn’t about shooting chi blasts for 30 yards. But that does not negate the fact that some high level internal martial artists have developed an internal energy that is, for lack of a better word, “psychic” in nature, and goes way beyond body mechanics
Not to be to gruff, but this is nonsense. Randi has been waiting for people to prove this for years, its all bogus.
It’s the training methods (not the sole form) that make CMA unique from other foreign arts.
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You need to get out more… and we should also mention how cultural and historical stuff skews views here… after years of Japanese oppression, no Chinese wants to see anything of value, much less Japanese influence…
QUOTE=lkfmdc;745339]
Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of “internal” in anything that is not staged or pre arranged…[/QUOTE]
lkfmdc: Again, you make a very good point here. This is actually what I’ve been trying to get around to in this discussion. And that is, even if it is a fact that this more “psychic” (for lack of a better word) type of internal power exists, is there any real practical value to it when it comes to live combat in the real world? From your comments here, I gather that your answer would be no.
I would imagine that with your background in studying high level CMA for many years in Chinatown, that you have seen more than your share of “strange and bizarre” displays and demonstrations of Chi power, etc. Yet in the final analysis, are you saying that there really isn’t any practical fighting value in developing any of these skills?
My post wasnt meant to come off elitist, or as quick retreat. I dont see the emphasis on finger training for example in many other arts up to the level of some CMA practitioners I have known personally. Another example is the stress on herbal use combined with training techniques to preserve the health of the area being trained, or affect things having to do with that area.
I am aware that other systems do similar things, but that is not what I implied. What I implied is that they do not all specialize up to the same levels in some areas. There are tons of examples, just like BJJ focuses differently on some aspects of fighting much more in depth than you are likely to find other styles around the world focusing on some of those specific aspects, Sambo as well. Boxing might be argued to take some of its skills to a pinnacle height that other arts dont often approach. This seems like common sense to me, do you still disagree though?
There are tons of examples, just like BJJ focuses differently on some aspects of fighting much more in depth than you are likely to find other styles around the world focusing on some of those specific aspects, Sambo as well. Boxing might be argued to take some of its skills to a pinnacle height that other arts dont often approach. This seems like common sense to me, do you still disagree though?
I agree with this very much. Some arts tend to focus on certain ranges and tools which may make them outshine others in that category. It just seemed that before you were proclaiming the old line about cma having special secrets because it is so advanced…
My point is that the human body only moves in so many ways, and its a big world with a lot of combative thought out there, so its smart to expect some crossover.
There is crossover, but you cant master it all before you die. Most people dont have the body conditioning of a bando or thai camp guy, most people dont have the fingers of a good Hung/SPM/Bagua person that actually does the training for 10+ years regularly, most people dont have the knife skills of a Kali/FMA person, etc. So, yes, CMA do have some things others dont really have at that level, as do most arts in their respects. I know some TKD guys can use their feet like hands, its all in how you specialize and what you learn.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;745339]
Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of “internal” in anything that is not staged or pre arranged…[/QUOTE]
lkfmdc: Again, you make a very good point here. This is actually what I’ve been trying to get around to in this discussion. And that is, even if it is a fact that this more “psychic” (for lack of a better word) type of internal power exists, is there any real practical value to it when it comes to live combat in the real world? From your comments here, I gather that your answer would be no.
I would imagine that with your background in studying high level CMA for many years in Chinatown, that you have seen more than your share of “strange and bizarre” displays and demonstrations of Chi power, etc. Yet in the final analysis, are you saying that there really isn’t any practical fighting value in developing any of these skills?
Black Jack II: I appreciate your honest opinions on this also. You mentioned that Randi has been waiting for people to prove this (by “this”, I assume that you mean this type of “psychic” internal power) for years.
Forgive my ignorance, but who is Randi? I am not familiar with who this is.
Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book “The Magus of Java” by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.
Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?
[QUOTE=FlyingCrane;745405]Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book “The Magus of Java” by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.
Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?[/QUOTE]
I have learned to take much in books like that with a grain, or 20, of salt. Chi Gung is not magical, mystical, or anything else. The only “internal” element of it is in developing the strong mind. The chi manipulation is the same; this is only one way, the chinese way, of empowering the spirit, or life energy. the rest is is preparring the bones, muscle and other tissue to handle great stress. You use all 3 effectively, you get Chi Gung.
What most people think of Chi Gung is a misunderstanding of what they see, because they don’t understand it. It is, of lack of a better way of saying it, using mind over mater to unlock your body’s truest abilities. Chi Gung is what it is called in Chinese martial arts. It “looks” a certain way because of the fraimwork used to teach it. Just as you write with a certain flair because that is how you were taught it.
Just as an FYI…Kosta Daneos doesn’t make Chi Gung out to be mystical or magical in his book. But he does report seeing as well as experiencing extrodinary things while studying Chi Gung with John Chang in Java. Things that would be considered, at least by western standards, to be quite beyond the ordinary.
For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the “test” that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu’s Chi Gung curriculum.
The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one’s mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.
Of course, this whole story may or may not be true. But if it is true, it certainly points to the possibility of developing a very different kind of internal energy. However, even if one did develop this, it may be extremely difficult to apply it in any usefull way in a real world combat situation. I believe that lkfmdc was trying to make this point in one of his responses on this thread.
For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the “test” that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu’s Chi Gung curriculum.
The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one’s mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.
Of course, this whole story may or may not be true.
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It is truly depressing to see someone believe that sort of stuff :eek:
real simple, if he can really move a pack of cigarettes with “chi” or whatever, he could be a MILLION DOLLARS richer… the old James Rhandi test…
Do you know why no “chi kung master” has ever claimed that million dollars? Because their tricks are just that, tricks, like every pro magician uses
Here is his website, he has been at this for ever, and no one has proven they can do anything which they state. Including qi qong masters and fraud psychic criminals like Brown.
