I want to see the different point of view of the different lineages of Wing Chun/VingTsun about this technique. I noticed some people make the gawn sao putting the forearm right in the middle of the centerline and shooting straight down to the umbilical area.Any comments?
Kan/Gaun Sao is the sister technique to Tan Sao. The positioning in my school is like this. Using the left arm, the wrist is down centerline, which means most of the left hand is on the right side of the centerline, the wrist is approximently waist/sash height, fingers pointed/inline with the outer forearm pointed diagonally downward and to the right. The intention is forward and not to the side. Can be used against any attack that is below the solar plexus, and against front, round, side kick, and various other grappling counters, etc.. And can also be combined with other hand movements, Pak sao, and footwork combinations.
James
Originally posted by sihing
[B]Kan/Gaun Sao is the sister technique to Tan Sao. The positioning in my school is like this. Using the left arm, the wrist is down centerline, which means most of the left hand is on the right side of the centerline, the wrist is approximently waist/sash height, fingers pointed/inline with the outer forearm pointed diagonally downward and to the right. The intention is forward and not to the side. Can be used against any attack that is below the solar plexus, and against front, round, side kick, and various other grappling counters, etc.. And can also be combined with other hand movements, Pak sao, and footwork combinations.
James [/B]
That’s why it’s called a “plow” hand. It plows forward like a plow in a field does. 
Phil
Phil,
In our terminology list we translate it as “Splitting Deflection”, is plowing hand more literal?
James
So we have :
- Plow hand
- Splitting deflection
so far and Wang Kiu described it as
- Separating hand or hand of separation:he showed how it separated one of the opponent’s hands from the other hand. Separating the dirt and plowing it are the same ideas.
Kenneth Chung’s method is more like the straight downward approach without the sideways idea. I think it is more of a replacement hand in this case.
Ray
Originally posted by YongChun
[B]So we have :
- Plow hand
- Splitting deflection
so far and Wang Kiu described it as
- Separating hand or hand of separation:he showed how it separated one of the opponent’s hands from the other hand. Separating the dirt and plowing it are the same ideas.
Kenneth Chung’s method is more like the straight downward approach without the sideways idea. I think it is more of a replacement hand in this case.
Ray [/B]
Well, the actual character for gan means to ‘Plow’ or “cultivate”.
In TWC we plow forward like a plow is used on a farm I’ve yet to see someone plow sideways. We don’t “chop/slice” to the side like a Karate block.
Phil
In the Wang Kiu method and in a Jiu Wan method I saw, the low hand comes smashing into your central axis so it goes forward from the guy doing it. The top hand does the same.
Ray
Yes, the force would be dispersed outward away from the centerline. Gan/Kan sao can also be used to trap and control in certain situations. And also can be combined with Tan Sao to form Grun Sao I believe.
James
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Well, the actual character for gan means to ‘Plow’ or “cultivate”.
In TWC we plow forward like a plow is used on a farm I’ve yet to see someone plow sideways. We don’t “chop/slice” to the side like a Karate block.
Phil
I was instructed that it meant ‘splitting’ as well (although Phil is correct in the literal).
But the image is not a ‘chop/slice’ to the side (a gwat sau would closer resemble that action) but like an axe wedge it’s ‘splitting’ the attack along the centerline, which is not unlike that of the plow ‘cultivating’ (or ‘splitting’) the soil.
Originally posted by YongChun
Kenneth Chung’s method is more like the straight downward approach without the sideways idea. I think it is more of a replacement hand in this case.
Yes, it replaces and displaces. In the process, it also momentarily alters the direction of adjacent forces.
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
But the image is not a ‘chop/slice’ to the side (a gwat sau would closer resemble that action) but like an axe wedge it’s ‘splitting’ the attack along the centerline, which is not unlike that of the plow ‘cultivating’ (or ‘splitting’) the soil.
I agree with this. Even with our downward movement (as Ray described), it is IMHO very similar to a plow penetrating the soil and initiating its subsequent task. Even though the hand and forearm movement slices downward, the geometry combined with movement and intention of the elbow also generates a forward vector; if I move with my legs, even more so.
Some may not perceive a correlation to splitting or plowing in our movement, but I do. Still, I won’t mind dropping the opponent with the initial penetrating movement instead of just disrupting into them if a) they give me enough to work with, and b) provided I can catch the timing well enough to affect it.
What I will not do is to try lifting my arm (increasing upper arm/body angle at the shoulder) as a means of pushing forward or fighting into them; I am too weak and vulnerable for it.
Regards,
- kj
Forget all the “theory” you have and will be offered – it’s one that works for you.
Originally posted by sihing
[B]Yes, the force would be dispersed outward away from the centerline. Gan/Kan sao can also be used to trap and control in certain situations. And also can be combined with Tan Sao to form Grun Sao I believe.
James [/B]
Hi James, Grun sau should be Romanized as Kwan Sau.
Phil
The terminology between practitioners is crazy. I learned Gwun/kwan sau as being a tan/bong combination. AKA “rolling hands”
A lot of your descriptions sound more like what I would call tan (dispersing) energy, which can take more of the (yang) offensive (like the way the front of a boat disperses the water to create waves) or (yin) passive (drawing in to disperse - like what Jim talks about with regard to koo lo/pien san’s application of Tan). Most of the descriptions here IMHO seem to be more of the yang application of tan energy (though in gan “clothing”).
Marty
Watchful Dragon
Originally posted by Vankuen
The terminology between practitioners is crazy. I learned Gwun/kwan sau as being a tan/bong combination. AKA “rolling hands”
So true, it would be nice to all use the same ‘method’ for romanization. For Cantonese it would be the Yale method and for Mandarin it would be Pinyin (those are the accepted methods for universities and ‘self-study’ courses). Also, if we were to use the Chinese characters instead of our romanizations it would reduce the ‘confusion’.
I have even seen the use of Cantonese and Mandarin words together describing a technique.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
[B]So true, it would be nice to all use the same ‘method’ for romanization. For Cantonese it would be the Yale method and for Mandarin it would be Pinyin (those are the accepted methods for universities and ‘self-study’ courses). Also, if we were to use the Chinese characters instead of our romanizations it would reduce the ‘confusion’.
I have even seen the use of Cantonese and Mandarin words together describing a technique.:rolleyes: [/B]
Wing Chun Kung Fu is a mixture of Mandarin and Cantonese. It should be Wing Chun Gung Fu (Cantonese), or Yung/Yong Chun Kung Fu (Mandarin).
Question for Terence
How do you propose someone with superior physical attributes to any regularly available training partners develop a high level of martial skill?
crimsonking wrote:
How do you propose someone with superior physical attributes to any regularly available training partners develop a high level of martial skill?
**One proven way is to continually place yourself in disadvantageous situations and “work” from there. For example, limit the tools available to you while your training partner has greater options. Or constantly face “fresh” opponents without taking a rest. Or let your training partner achieve some advantage and then work from there. You get the idea.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]crimsonking wrote:
How do you propose someone with superior physical attributes to any regularly available training partners develop a high level of martial skill?
**One proven way is to continually place yourself in disadvantageous situations and “work” from there. For example, limit the tools available to you while your training partner has greater options. Or constantly face “fresh” opponents without taking a rest. Or let your training partner achieve some advantage and then work from there. You get the idea. [/B]
Excellent suggestions.
Regards,
- kj
Terence
Thanks for your answers Terence, they sounded very reasonable.
How would you suggest someone with vastly inferior physical attributes to their regular training partners develop a reasonable level of martial ability?