I met this guy recently. Something to work on in the new year.
His hands are fast. The real question is does he have really useful power when he does that or is it mostly just suppose to annoy the other guy?
Ive been hit by him in the chest (albeit not full force) so i can say yes he can probably hit hard
also he is hitting the carotid artery with the edge of his hand. It doesnt take much to pole axe someone with that. Seen it done in training.
2 things he did to fastern his strikes
he stops his breathing
he tenses his shoulder up.
You want to do that to get as fast hand as him too?
Hendrik,
No denying that he has fast hands - on that attribute alone it is impressive I guess. I think it’s awful nice of his partner to drop his hands as well.
In general, I agree with your observations. Speed has come at a price. Don’t get me wrong, I doubt I could do nearly as well as he’s doing. It’s just too easy to critique videos; to be an armchair martial artist, so to speak.
He does have fast hands…and what seemed to be good enough control to not accidently hit the other guy who was letting him do the techniques on him.
ON that note,
- His posture turns to shiet when he hits, limiting true transfer of power from the ground. Any power that came from those strikes was strictly from arm muscles…nothing more. Not to mention the fact he had to visibly “prepare” himself after the defense. There goes the idea of “simultaneous attack and defense” in wing chun/tsun/tzun/tchzun/chdun/stzun or however else someone wants to spell it.
- I don’t know of any fighter, or even non-fighter, that he could actually pull off something like that. Fights don’t happen that way. People who have fought will know this to be true.
- It’s well known that extreme successive strikes like that become more tense and less powerful as they progress. A single powerful blow that hits it’s mark cleanly is more effective then that mess.
Other then that…good shiet!
Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Hendrik,
No denying that he has fast hands - on that attribute alone it is impressive I guess. I think it’s awful nice of his partner to drop his hands as well.
In general, I agree with your observations. Speed has come at a price. Don’t get me wrong, I doubt I could do nearly as well as he’s doing. It’s just too easy to critique videos; to be an armchair martial artist, so to speak. [/B]
You see, I believe in cause and effect. do one thing, will get the effect. Nothing good or bad.
However, the older I got, I cant do those stoping breathing stuffs anymore. The stop breathing stuffs cause heart and liver problem at old age. Thus, I have heard.
The reason I brought the stop breathing and rasing the shoulder is to identify different way of generating power.
You are correct about his partner. but, they are doing a practice so that is ok. you might not want to train the same way to face a grapper. IMHO
anyway, the guy did spend alots of time in his training that we need to give him a clap of encouragement on the great job.
I agree with Edmund (at the bottom of your sig, Nick)! 
Nah, only kidding…
but I’m not far off that fast in doing the same kind of thing: stopping strikes against a defenceless ‘opponent’, and I tend to agree with Hendrik when he says the guy isn’t breathing and is tensing his shoulders.
Also with Vankuen’s second point and with reservation his third (I don’t think it’s a given that your successive strikes get more tense and less powerful but it’s probably commonly so).
I’m not slating the guy, of course it’s only a demo, and I’ve never felt it, but I think I have more important things to work on in my wing chun than closing the gap between my speed and his.
It would be interesting to see his speed and body connection hitting a heavy object full power… like a heavy bag, or God forbid :rolleyes: a live resisting opponent.
I much prefer the bottom vid in that selection: Sifu Henning was it (?) and his chi sao. Slow, careful, connected, controlled. Though again, it would be interesting to see him chi saoing with someone of more experience.
It is easy to get really “good”, really fast, really sharp, etc. doing a drill. But, of course, the goal isn’t to “look good” doing a drill; so the question is: do these “skills” transfer to genuine fighting skills. In other words, has this drill helped him become a better fighter (increased his fighting performance)? That can’t be determined by looking at the performance of the drill, it can only be determined by seeing him fight.
Moreover, oftentimes many of these very “qualites” that are admired in the performance of drills are actually counter-productive to increasing one’s fighting performance.
So what does that clip mean to me? Nothing. It shows nothing more than someone who has gotten very fast doing a cooperative drill. And it says nothing more than that.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
In other words, has this drill helped him become a better fighter (increased his fighting performance)?
If I were a betting man, I would say “No”. Unless you’re fighting someone who is willing to just stand there and take some punishment. I just don’t like the odds of that ever happening. You can be fast with your hands, but they need to be coordinated with the body and feet. I’d rather see clean strikes.
Moreover, oftentimes many of these very “qualites” that are admired in the performance of drills are actually counter-productive to increasing one’s fighting performance.
On this point, I absolutely agree. Like I said in my previous post, this demonstration of “speed has come at a price”. At least that’s how I see it.
However, if the guy is just trying to show off his hand speed that’s fine as well - for what that’s worth.
Like I said, it’s easy to be critical. 
A bit more…
for sure…I liked what I saw from the bald guy in the chi sao vid. He seemed very connected and rooted, and was very superflous. To me it shows more skill in movement then the hand flurry from the other guy. Although the other guy did have a nice demo vid on that site too…
I just don’t believe in the flurry stuff. There is a maxim in wing chun…
“hit when you should, and do not when you shouldn’t”
Using a flurry goes against that because your body is going off of predetermined pattern memorized from practicing that same flurry in drills just like the one we saw.
Just my two cents.
Re: A bit more…
Originally posted by Vankuen
He seemed very connected and rooted, and was very superflous. To me it shows more skill in movement then the hand flurry from the other guy.
Yes, I agree with your assessment that more skill is being shown in that clip. If you don’t mind me asking, what do you mean by “superfluous”- since that term means “having no useful purpose”? I’d like to know what you meant to say.
Thanks,
It’s also used to describe something that flows well.
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin superfluus, literally, running over, from superfluere to overflow, from super- + fluere to flow – more at FLUID
Fluid would’ve been another word to use…
Van,
Thanks for the clarification.
The problem with “evaluating” chi sao, especially from a video clip, is that the drill can be done numerous “ways”, with each “way” focusing on certain aspects/qualites (with perhaps little involvement in other aspects/qualities). And there is nothing wrong with that – that’s exactly what drills do: permit us to shift our focus and concentrate our practice on some aspect(s) by ignoring others. This is why chi sao, regardless of how one practices it, no mattter how “combatively” one thinks one is doing it, is nothing like fighting – because certain aspects that are a significant part of fighting are by definition being ignored.
So when I hear folks talk about a “lack of root” or some other thing, that can be a conscious decision by the trainee to work on some other aspect. In this case, the trainee may be concentrating on hand speed or something else.
As I said, we can’t evaluate the effectiveness of our training except in our using it (has our training given us the results we’re after?) – which means by fighting. It is easy to get what I call chi sao blind, get lost in the drill, and use the drill as the goal itself – to measure “results” by how “good” one gets at the drill. But chi sao skills are not fighting skills; chi sao skills need to be “tweaked” or modified to be effectively used in fighting, especially against skilled opponents. Someone can have the “best” chi sao and not be able to fight a lick (and can have a completely erroneous idea of application). This can only be appreciated from experience (by fighting).
Not that you need my endorsement 
but that was a very good post Terrence.
Phil
Originally posted by t_niehoff
So when I hear folks talk about a “lack of root” or some other thing, that can be a conscious decision by the trainee to work on some other aspect. In this case, the trainee may be concentrating on hand speed or something else.
While it is certainly good to concentrate on one or more aspects of your training, doing so at the expense of the fundamentals is counter-productive in my opinion. What’s the point of concentrating on hand speed if you’re sacrificing everything else?? To focus on one attribute of your skill set should not be at the total expense of everything else.
Someone can have the “best” chi sao and not be able to fight a lick (and can have a completely erroneous idea of application). This can only be appreciated from experience (by fighting).
I disagree. If they cannot fight, then their chi sao is not the “best”. While I agree that chi sao is not fighting, something is missing from the chi sao if it does not translate into fighting skill. And like I said before, I have fighting experience, I just have a different perspective than you do. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that there may be more than one way to reach the goal? You speak of being chi sao blind, and I find that interesting coming from someone who appears to be sparring blind. Oh well, back to the “folk dancing”…
Matrix,
You’ve missed the entire point of my posts.
Chi sao, as in any drill, does not involve the integration of all fundamental aspects of our method – rather, it requires sacraficing one thing to develop another (and it leaves some things out entirely regardless of how you do the drill). That’s what drills do by their very nature. Do a drill to develop stability, then you are not developing (ie., sacrificing) mobility.
The belief that chi sao translates into fighting skill is the cornerstone of the theoretician POV. It absolutely does not. And it is a very simple thing to appreciate – but it only comes from experience. What chi sao does is give one “the feeling” of what they should be trying to do, some limited experience in the method, etc. but that won’t translate directly into higher level fighting skill. It can’t.
I’m not “fighting blind” because deveoping greater fighting skills (performance) is the goal of our training – its the results we’re after. One can’t be “result blind.”
Originally posted by t_niehoff
You’ve missed the entire point of my posts.
As you seemed to have missed mine.
Do a drill to develop stability, then you are not developing (ie., sacrificing) mobility.
In each case, whether mobility or stability I still maintain my balance and other fundamental attributes. And let’s stick to the example from the previous post if you don’t mind. I don’t need to sacrifice stability(root), form or structure for hand speed. Let’s not try and confuse the issue with mutually exclusive qualities.
The belief that chi sao translates into fighting skill is the cornerstone of the theoretician POV. It absolutely does not.
You keep saying that. Rather, let’s say this… You do not believe that chi sao translates into fighting skill, therefore in your opinion it absolutely does not. You seem to think that your POV is “the truth” and you are certainly entitled to that perspective. I just don’t share your view.
And it is a very simple thing to appreciate – but it only comes from experience.
Once again, based one your experience. Not mine. I have “experience” too you know…
What chi sao does is give one “the feeling” of what they should be trying to do, some limited experience in the method, etc. but that won’t translate directly into higher level fighting skill. It can’t.
I am sorry to hear that your experience in chi sao has been so limiting. In that case, Keep on sparring…
One can’t be “result blind.”
Agreed.
Same conclusion, different path. Go figure.
Matrix,
It has nothing to do with personal views but evidence – provable results of increased performance fighting. If from doing chi sao you have developed fighting skills that enable you to hold your own with highly skilled fighters, then great. You’ve accomplished what no one else has been able to do. I look forward to meeting you someday so you can demonstrate that ability.