[QUOTE=MightyB;1278020]Ninja is a state of mind.QUOTE]
Ninja is a state of mind. anyone know the chinese name for Ninja
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278031] And in the ever changing times ,who knows we might need to use such skills as being able to move in the dark, move silently and survive in the wilderness, not to mention first aid and using various object as improvised weapons.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the ninjas clearly have a monopoly on those skills and training.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1277955]THAT WAS NOT NINJITSU!!! Everyone knows that Ninjitsu fights like this:
//youtu.be/zVLxtSZ4sYM
[/QUOTE]
Can you post the continuation?
The ninja had true kung fu. True kung fu means staying in animal character even when you’re running away.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278031]For both side of the argument it is difficult to prove one way or the other,. There are those that say Ninja didn’t do this and that a long time ago and those {that actually train in the art] that say they do. Who knows for sure? Was anyone on this message board in ancient Japan at the time of the historical ninja?
For me it is simple, Masaaki Hatsumi is a well know master of 6 historically proven authentic Japanese styles, he learned them from To****sugu Takamatsu. A grandmaster of 6 traditional styles wouldn’t need to add three fake ninja ryus to his curriculum. And if you have actually trained in the Bujinkan for any amount of time you can feel the authenticness of such style. Beside creating a time machine and traveling back in time there would be no way to be 100% sure the ninja methods Hatsumi or his teacher Takamatsu taught him were actually done by the ninja, but based on the fact that Hatsumi is teaching 6 proven authentic Japanese traditional arts mixed in with three ninja ryus is enough to convince me. There is a lot more proof here that the Ninja styles are authentic than the latter , someone saying hey the ninja styles are fake
Now do these techniques work in modern time? I have used the methods taught in Ninjutsu several times to defend myself as well as avoid danger. And in the ever changing times ,who knows we might need to use such skills as being able to move in the dark, move silently and survive in the wilderness, not to mention first aid and using various object as improvised weapons.[/QUOTE]
Masaaki Hatsumi is the founder of the Bujinkan organization and makes claims to an alleged art that actual historians can argue against.
Maybe he is a martial artist that capitalized on a consumers desires? It’s not like that NEVER happens.
It’s not about being in the past and having been there. The Samurai era is very well recorded.
If you read about any of these “ninjutsu” masters. Hatsumi or Hayes etc. You will see the words “claimed, alleged, purported” peppered throughout their presentation.
You will not see such things with other arts.
Whether it works or not is a matter of putting it out there and testing it.
In the meantime traditional sword arts from japan don’t subscribe to claims like this, Karate has it’s new and it’s old, Judo, Jujutsu and other arts of japan are documented just fine. But this stuff? Nah, it has all the hallmarks of being “made up” It has none of the hallmarks of Japanese traditional martial arts lineages and histories otherwise.
But then, there’s people who claim to worship spaghetti and demand to be respected for it or those who base their religion on a movie about space from 1977 and so on.
We humans engage the absurd more readily than we humans undertake actual disciplines that require years of steady, dedicated practice. That’s why there are so few masters and so many piles of deluded crackpots out there who think themselves special. lol
Pssst Masaaki Hatsumi is the recognized leader of such authentic histrorical ryus as Gyokko-Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto-Ryu Koppojutsu, Shindenfudo-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Happo Bikken Gikan-Ryu Koppo Taijutsu Takagiyoshin-Ryu Jutaijutsu, which he was taught by To****sugu Takamatsu,and by the way lets throw in three fake ninja ryus,higly unlikely.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278173]Pssst Masaaki Hatsumi is the recognized leader of such authentic histrorical ryus as Gyokko-Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto-Ryu Koppojutsu, Shindenfudo-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Happo Bikken Gikan-Ryu Koppo Taijutsu Takagiyoshin-Ryu Jutaijutsu, which he was taught by To****sugu Takamatsu,and by the way lets throw in three fake ninja ryus,higly unlikely.[/QUOTE]
He is the founder, ergo he founded those styles. they did not pre-exist him. the other arts are traditional, but not particular to ninjas.
Come on. It says it right there that he invented it based on what he already knew.
Togakure Ryu (Nin) - 1969 Edition
After the Taisho (Era), Takamatsu Tosugu utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy. It is said that the densho was according to Toda Shinryuken’s kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 30 at the age of 73 years. Takamatsu was born 4 years later. If you take this genealogy, a person named Iin introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. However, because it is referenced from various transmittances such as oral material and kuden, the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality. And so it is painstaking work (to find accurate information
Takamatsu Tosugu organized its genealogy. It is said that it was taken from the densho according to Toda Shinryuken’s kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 41 at the age of 90 years. According to the genealogy, a person named Ikai introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. Because it is referenced from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished; it is thought that the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature
Your spaghetti theory is convincing though.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278202]Togakure Ryu (Nin) - 1969 Edition
After the Taisho (Era), Takamatsu Tosugu utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy. It is said that the densho was according to Toda Shinryuken’s kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 30 at the age of 73 years. Takamatsu was born 4 years later. If you take this genealogy, a person named Iin introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. However, because it is referenced from various transmittances such as oral material and kuden, the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality. And so it is painstaking work (to find accurate information
Takamatsu Tosugu organized its genealogy. It is said that it was taken from the densho according to Toda Shinryuken’s kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 41 at the age of 90 years. According to the genealogy, a person named Ikai introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. Because it is referenced from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished; it is thought that the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature
Your spaghetti theory is convincing though.[/QUOTE]
The key points that you offer up yourself:
-
“utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy”
-
“It is said that”
-
“the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality”
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“from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished”
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“the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature”
so, now we need to understand what “embellish” means exactly.
em·bel·lish
mbeliSH/
verb
make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features.
“blue silk embellished with golden embroidery”
synonyms: decorate, adorn, ornament; More
make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, especially ones that are not true.
“she had real difficulty telling the truth because she liked to embellish things”
synonyms: elaborate, embroider, expand on, exaggerate
“the legend was embellished in later re-tellings”
Lastly, I find it ironic that you call it spaghetti theory when in fact what I am saying is reflecting what is actually going on.
I am not certain what it is you think you are promoting or supporting. But like I said, it is revealing itself as not “actual” in what is written, the guy is a founder and is basing his ideas on other things and not actual systems as there were none in any real sense of the word.
I think if you are still going to get upset by simple truth, then that is your prerogative. In the meantime, the ninja craze driving the opening of schools that say they teach it is somewhat absurd.
Did Ninja exist? Yes and if you ask any scholar, historian, curator etc, which is what I have done over time, then you will discover truth. If you want to accept these guys as long lineage holders of secret ninja arts that will make you teh deadly, then I cannot offer any solace to you. You will either spiral into self absorbed ridiculousness or you will eventually find that bad taste in your mouth as you come to realize what a fool you’ve been.
But you go ahead and believe what you like, it’s not like there isn’t a host of shaky stories out there in the martial arts world. As an enthusiast myself, I see it every, single, day. lol
The same can be said about your spaghetti theory but this just makes more sense to me
Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were “friends” - and “confidence between friends” justifies Watatani’s portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as “fabrications” (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.
Toda Sankyo Isshin is its ancestor. In the year of Tenbun (1532-1555) Sakagami Taro Kunishige received the Gyokko Ryu ****ojutsu tradition. Toda Sakyo Isshinsai established the Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu as well as the Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and taught it to Momochi Sandayu. (Momochi) taught it within the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu and it lead to Toda Shinryuken (in the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate). Shinryuken Masamitsu passed away in Meiji 40 at the age of 90 years. Please consult the (listing for) Koto Ryu Koppojutsu.
[Genealogy]: Tozawa Hakuunsai - Tozawa Shosuke - Suzuki Saburo Shigeyoshi…(Six Generations of Suzuki Line Omitted)…Sakagami Goro Katsushige - Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko ojutsu) - Sakagami Kotaro Masahide - Sogyokan - [Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu (Kishu) - Sasaki Goemon Teruyoshi (Gyokushin Ninpo)] and [Suzuki Taizen Zentaro Chikamasa (Hon Tai Gyokushin Ryu)…(Three Generations Omitted)…Fukao Kakuma Shigeyoshi (Izumo Ryu Koppo)] and [Akimoto Kawauchi Moriyoshi - Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (Gikan Ryu Koppo)…Akimoto Taro Yoshihide] and Toda Sakyo Isshinsai (Koshijutsu, Koppo) - Momochi Sandayu (Tenbun) - Second Generation Momochi Sandayu (Tensho) - Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (Keicho) - Momochi Taro Saemon…(Four Generations Omitted)…Toda Seiryu Nobutsuna (Kannei) - Toda Fudo Nobuchika (Manji) - Toda Kangoro Nobuyasu (Kanbun) - Toda Eisaburu Nobumasa - Toda Shingoro Masayoshi (Genbun) - Toda Daigoro Chikahide (Meiwa) - Toda Daisaburo Chikashige - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu - Takamatsu Tosugu - Hatsumi Yoshiaki.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278213]The same can be said about your spaghetti theory but this just makes more sense to me
Toda Sankyo Isshin is its ancestor. In the year of Tenbun (1532-1555) Sakagami Taro Kunishige received the Gyokko Ryu ****ojutsu tradition. Toda Sakyo Isshinsai established the Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu as well as the Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and taught it to Momochi Sandayu. (Momochi) taught it within the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu and it lead to Toda Shinryuken (in the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate). Shinryuken Masamitsu passed away in Meiji 40 at the age of 90 years. Please consult the (listing for) Koto Ryu Koppojutsu.
[Genealogy]: Tozawa Hakuunsai - Tozawa Shosuke - Suzuki Saburo Shigeyoshi…(Six Generations of Suzuki Line Omitted)…Sakagami Goro Katsushige - Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko ojutsu) - Sakagami Kotaro Masahide - Sogyokan - [Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu (Kishu) - Sasaki Goemon Teruyoshi (Gyokushin Ninpo)] and [Suzuki Taizen Zentaro Chikamasa (Hon Tai Gyokushin Ryu)…(Three Generations Omitted)…Fukao Kakuma Shigeyoshi (Izumo Ryu Koppo)] and [Akimoto Kawauchi Moriyoshi - Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (Gikan Ryu Koppo)…Akimoto Taro Yoshihide] and Toda Sakyo Isshinsai (Koshijutsu, Koppo) - Momochi Sandayu (Tenbun) - Second Generation Momochi Sandayu (Tensho) - Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (Keicho) - Momochi Taro Saemon…(Four Generations Omitted)…Toda Seiryu Nobutsuna (Kannei) - Toda Fudo Nobuchika (Manji) - Toda Kangoro Nobuyasu (Kanbun) - Toda Eisaburu Nobumasa - Toda Shingoro Masayoshi (Genbun) - Toda Daigoro Chikahide (Meiwa) - Toda Daisaburo Chikashige - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu - Takamatsu Tosugu - Hatsumi Yoshiaki.[/QUOTE]
Dude, making a list with a bunch of names does what?
That you cannot comprehend a simple word such as embellishment and instead choose to go on and call the truth “spaghetti theory” just paints you as a troll. Duly noted. I can’t be bothered explaining it to you over and over again. I am not concerned with sharing truth with people who don’t want it and instead prefer their big blanket of bullshit. Enjoy your blanket I guess?
lol :rolleyes:
Please take the time to read my post, or is it just a matter of getting the last word in
Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were “friends” - and “confidence between friends” justifies Watatani’s portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as “fabrications” (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278215]Please take the time to read my post, or is it just a matter of getting the last word in
Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were “friends” - and “confidence between friends” justifies Watatani’s portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as “fabrications” (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.[/QUOTE]
No, it’s not about the last word and it is most certainly a load to say “only the soke may truly know”.
That’s rubbish and is a set up so that those who make outrageous claims can avoid being challenged on the veracity of said claims.
Let me divulge a little background. I got into martial arts by my own volition and at my fathers behest when I was 9. I am 50 now.
I have been through so many piles of information regarding samurai culture and rule and have a pretty good grasp of a great deal of it.
The idea that there is a particular school of ninja arts is very modern and if you reflect on the history of what happened, you would see the absurdity of the claims being made. One who makes such claims is not afraid of mixing lies and truth together to get the best result for themselves.
Do you not even question why this one guy is the ONLY guy to make such spurious claims as he is? Not even a little?
If one doesn’t actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point
Togakure RyNinpo * - Hidden Door School
The oldest of the nine traditions, the techniques and skills of the Togakure Ryu form much of the basis for the Ninjutsu techniques taught in the Bujinkan.
The Togakure Ryu Ninja were required to master 18 forms of Bujutsu (Martial arts) including various punching, throwing and levering techniques making up taijutsu (unarmed combat) along with the arts of Kenpo (swordsmanship), Yari (spear), Naginata (halberd), Bojutsu (staff fighting), and three school secrets, named Sanpo Hiden, which are Shuko (hand claws), Senban Shuriken (throwing daggers), and Shinodake (bamboo tube for breathing under water).
Or pssst ninja are fake
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1278220]If one doesnt actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point
Togakure RyNinpo * - Hidden Door School
The oldest of the nine traditions, the techniques and skills of the Togakure Ryu form much of the basis for the Ninjutsu techniques taught in the Bujinkan.
The Togakure Ryu Ninja were required to master 18 forms of Bujutsu (Martial arts) including various punching, throwing and levering techniques making up taijutsu (unarmed combat) along with the arts of Kenpo (swordsmanship), Yari (spear), Naginata (halberd), Bojutsu (staff fighting), and three school secrets, named Sanpo Hiden, which are Shuko (hand claws), Senban Shuriken (throwing daggers), and Shinodake (bamboo tube for breathing under water).
Or pssst ninja are fake[/QUOTE]
ninja as an organization? yeah, that is 100% fake.
The arts that are used in this modern made up ninja school? Sure, these are all over the place and none of them are strictly “ninja” arts. It’s absurd to even posture that breathing with a snorkle/reed/tube etc is a ninja art form.
Ninja also killed with syphilis in a long game. Is that a secret art they teach at ninja school too? lol contract syphilis then seduce your target an let them rape you, then watch as they slowly rot away and lose their mind over 25 years. That is an actual recorded ninja move. lol
Come on. Read some history and stop eating the Bujinkan tales only. Recognize a hodge podge for what it is and understand history for what it is.
I explained exactly what ninja were. They aren’t guys running around in black gis claiming to be ninja, that is for sure.
you could have a whole village of ninja. Basically lower class people who were willing to do dirty deed dirt cheap. NOt some mystical brotherhood or sisterhood with codes of honour etc etc. THat is utterly an outright lie.
But hey, psssst you can believe whatever fairy tales you want to put in your head.
But if you’re promoting lies as truth round h’yar, I’m going to call you on it.
If one doesnt actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point
Gyokko Ry Kosshijutsu Jewel Tiger School
Kosshijutsu means “to knock down the enemy with one finger”. Koshi could also mean “Backbone”, as if the Kosshijutsu is the backbone of martial arts. Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu, is a distant branch of the Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu.
Their is a saying in the Gyokko Ryu: “Bushigokoro wo motte totoshi no nasu”, ‘the warriors heart is precious, and essential’.
The school specialises in techniques that involve Kosshijutsu (attack against muscles), and ****ojutsu (use of thumbs and fingers). Typical for the Gyokko Ryu are the powerful blocks, and balance taking. They prefer to block, by hitting with the knuckles to the muscles areas.
I dont think they have any DNA samples though;] I must admit your syphilis and spaghetti theories are pretty convincing, add in the psst ninja are fake and you have a rock hard case.
Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Ninjitsu questionable, fraud?
Interesting, bujinkan budo ninjutsu is very ineffective as far as i am concerned. But the lineage and many schools within the bujinkan budo taijutsu seem to be fraudalent and made up as well .
See the article link below about the questionable lineage of Hatsumi’s bujinkan budo and the 9 traditions, also the article speaks about effectiveness of the art:
“Togakure Ryu History for the Rest of Us,”*
by: Roger Conant*
(posted toe-budo.comSept. 2006)*
http://sustainedreaction.yuku.com/topic/5540/BUJINKAN-NINJUTSU-HATSUMI-DID-A-CARLOS