I didn’t really like the Foshan Wing Chun. There was a lot of forearm and fist conditioning. Nobody was competing so why destroy your hands and arms hitting sand bags, wood and each other limbs? I don’t do that stuff anymore. When I’m old I want a healthy body not one that has been ruined by years of pointless Kung Fu training.
Fair enough it’s a hobby no need to wreck your body unless you are a fighter, and even then only if theres money in it! In the longer arm styles like CLF forearm conditioning such as 3 and 7 stars hitting makes sense as not only will you be clubbing people with your forearms it helps to teach proper body mechanics for the longer arm strikes (weight shifting and hip and waist usage for example) . We used to do it in my first style and their I found it pointless as it was a close range family style which didn’t use the strikes or the body the way 3 star striking trains it.
In bakmei the iron bag is used to teach dropping and relaxed power, how to coordinate the external links in the power chain with the breathing etc as much as it is to actually condition the hand my sifu doesn’t emphasis it too much, it little and often and relaxed not forced, he is in his 50’s and works with his hands for a living as a physical therapist/physiotherapist and his hands are only messed up from playing rugby and judo not the kung fu he teaches lol
Cool
It’s a shame all discussions can’t start and end like this one Frost. I feel mildly aroused 
[QUOTE=Graham H;1241395]Cool
It’s a shame all discussions can’t start and end like this one Frost. I feel mildly aroused :D[/QUOTE]
Shall I jump in and arrest your arousement??? 
[QUOTE=GlennR;1241396]Shall I jump in and arrest your arousement??? ;)[/QUOTE]
I was half expecting you to mate:)
I use the PE fist and the leopard fist and the “lama fist” in in-close fighting all the time.
You can’t use it to its’ full potential unless you have conditioned it.
And That is why I think so many “drop it” from their curriculum, just like finger strikes.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1241376]Really? Where?[/QUOTE]
Ginger fist is always there. Right at the end.
PE fist is sometimes there, sometimes not. You will even see WSL make the shape sometimes after huen sau as he closes the fist. It is not favoured in WSL lineage but others use it more and punch, even in SNT, with PE fist rather than sun fist. It is definitely in the system, just not emphasised as much as in other southern kung fu.
From SPM I wouldn’t say these fists are useless. They just require a lot of work to make them useful. Being punched to the body with PE fist or leopard fist is no joke. You can see leopard fist done in kyokushin sometimes. People go down, obviously, because of the force multiplier effect of the smaller area with the same punching power. This is what they are for.Similarly ginger fist to the temple is not a jokey fantasy technique. It is a horrible thing to do.
Systems that make heavy use of these are not all crap. Bak mei and SPM with the PE fist are practical at hitting you to the sternum or floating rib or liver or neck with it and that will finish you more effectively than a technique like sun punch where the impact is cushioned by the larger surface area. Kyokushin and CLF with the leopard fist are practical at body punching you very hard with it in turning or whipping type punches. Not pleasant.
Think of it like the difference in being hit by a baseball bat (sun punch) vs being hit by the business end of a golf club (PE fist). The golf club kills you more effectively because the force of the same kind of swing is concentrated into a much smaller impact area, resulting in greater lbs/sq in and more trauma. The golf club though is much more reliant on getting distance and timing right, same as the PE fist. Get it wrong and you are at an immediate disadvantage that is not the case with blunt trauma methods like sun fist.
Ginger fist is always there. Right at the end.
No Ginger Fist in my BJ
You will even see WSL make the shape sometimes after huen sau as he closes the fist.
That’s not a ginger fist either guy
From SPM I wouldn’t say these fists are useless. They just require a lot of work to make them useful. Being punched to the body with PE fist or leopard fist is no joke. You can see leopard fist done in kyokushin sometimes. People go down, obviously, because of the force multiplier effect of the smaller area with the same punching power. This is what they are for.Similarly ginger fist to the temple is not a jokey fantasy technique. It is a horrible thing to do.
Systems that make heavy use of these are not all crap. Bak mei and SPM with the PE fist are practical at hitting you to the sternum or floating rib or liver or neck with it and that will finish you more effectively than a technique like sun punch where the impact is cushioned by the larger surface area. Kyokushin and CLF with the leopard fist are practical at body punching you very hard with it in turning or whipping type punches. Not pleasant.
Yes but I have never seen or heard of it being used in a real street fight. If you can do it and works that’s great. I prefer just to hit the dude with a normal clenched fist. Less chance of any stupid injuries. I guess if you have a shot at the ribs a PE punch would be nasty but no time for such things IMO. The fear takes over and what will be will be.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1241407]No Ginger Fist in my BJ
That’s not a ginger fist either guy
Yes but I have never seen or heard of it being used in a real street fight. If you can do it and works that’s great. I prefer just to hit the dude with a normal clenched fist. Less chance of any stupid injuries. I guess if you have a shot at the ribs a PE punch would be nasty but no time for such things IMO. The fear takes over and what will be will be.[/QUOTE]
Really?
I’ve used it.
Few guys I know have used it.
Uechi-ryu guys use it.
SPM guys and Pak Mei guys use it all the time.
You just have to condition it, drill it AND USE it in training and it will “come out” in a real fight.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1241407]No Ginger Fist in my BJ[/QUOTE]
BJ’s obviously differ quite a bit
That’s not a ginger fist either guy
Not ginger fist, he does PE fist sometimes. Not a lot, I don’t think he was a fan, but is is sometimes there.
Yes but I have never seen or heard of it being used in a real street fight. If you can do it and works that’s great. I prefer just to hit the dude with a normal clenched fist. Less chance of any stupid injuries. I guess if you have a shot at the ribs a PE punch would be nasty but no time for such things IMO. The fear takes over and what will be will be.
People use PE fist in real street fights all the time. It is a street fighting technique! A gangster technique. If it is conditioned you can hit to the body and neck with it without worrying really, same with leopard fist. It doesn’t require the type of flawed thinking where attacker does x and you do y. You just hit with these fist shapes when you are hitting the body. The main risk is catching an elbow pulled back against the floating ribs to protect. Everything else down there can be hit with it no problem
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1241408]Really?
I’ve used it.
Few guys I know have used it.
Uechi-ryu guys use it.
SPM guys and Pak Mei guys use it all the time.
You just have to condition it, drill it AND USE it in training and it will “come out” in a real fight.[/QUOTE]
What were the effects of it ? Curious
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1241414]What were the effects of it ? Curious[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for anyone else, but when I have used them, the results were positive and immediate.
I tend to use them VS attempted grabs or what I call “silly clinching” ( the macho stuff that some people do).
I used the Lama fist to the side of a guys head ( temple) and he went down fast and hard.
I have broke a guys ribs with a PE fist once ( according to the paramedics anyways).
As for the rest, well, I can speak on specifics but again, I have always gotten positive results so, that is why I advocate them.
Of course, as I said before, they MUST be (IMO) forged correctly.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1241414]What were the effects of it ? Curious[/QUOTE]
It’s like the difference between being hit by this
and this
It concentrates the force of the hit into a smaller area. It is intensely practical and very effective for body punching in my experience
BJ’s obviously differ quite a bit
The whole system differs not just BJ
Not ginger fist, he does PE fist sometimes. Not a lot, I don’t think he was a fan, but is is sometimes there.
He doesn’t
People use PE fist in real street fights all the time. It is a street fighting technique! A gangster technique. If it is conditioned you can hit to the body and neck with it without worrying really, same with leopard fist. It doesn’t require the type of flawed thinking where attacker does x and you do y. You just hit with these fist shapes when you are hitting the body. The main risk is catching an elbow pulled back against the floating ribs to protect. Everything else down there can be hit with it no problem
ok
As said, Lun Gai in Foshan teaches the PE fist, as does Kulo Wing Chun. I think you can also find it in Yuen Kay San and Sum Nung Wing Chun too - certainly it is there in derivatives like Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun.
Leung Ting’s Wing Tsun has it too - though this is something he ‘re-added’, as it was not taught to him by Yip Man, I believe. You find it in his BT form, and it crops up in the Chi Sao sections he teaches.
Really a nasty way of hitting - and the fist is formed very easily. Good to use against the ribs, but negated a little if someone is wearing very thick/heavy clothing. But even light taps to the face and neck with a PE fist are extremely painful.
Why did Yip Man not teach it (or teach it much) in Hong Kong? He never said, as far as I know. But it is a very dangerous method of hitting - and with so many young Wing Chunners in Hong Kong who liked to get into street fights perhaps he thought teaching it would only lead to big problems.
I have see Lun Gai’s Fung Ngua and its different to that found in the Hakka systems. I know some very very solid fighters/doormen who train SPM (not Chow Gar). There actual fighting is very effectivr and very sound structure. They would eat most Wing Chun people. They use there PE (fung ngua) to a very high level. Im talking push ups on the PE.
Think alot of main stream wing chunners are very ignorant to other ideas and systems. Manily due to not meeting “real deal” kung fu guys.
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1241466]I have see Lun Gai’s Fung Ngua and its different to that found in the Hakka systems. I know some very very solid fighters/doormen who train SPM (not Chow Gar). There actual fighting is very effectivr and very sound structure. They would eat most Wing Chun people. They use there PE (fung ngua) to a very high level. Im talking push ups on the PE.
Think alot of main stream wing chunners are very ignorant to other ideas and systems. Manily due to not meeting “real deal” kung fu guys.[/QUOTE]
Agree , meeting the real deal leaves you in little doubt about speed and power coming at you. No time to think.
[QUOTE=BPWT;1241456]As said, Lun Gai in Foshan teaches the PE fist, as does Kulo Wing Chun. I think you can also find it in Yuen Kay San and Sum Nung Wing Chun too - certainly it is there in derivatives like Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun.
Leung Ting’s Wing Tsun has it too - though this is something he ‘re-added’, as it was not taught to him by Yip Man, I believe. You find it in his BT form, and it crops up in the Chi Sao sections he teaches. [/QUOTE]
The Leung Ting use of the Phoenix Eye is a softer, more whipping technique than what I’ve seen demonstrated in SPM. For a while back in my late forties of early fifties I got into training a hard-style Phoenix Eye, …doing PE push-ups on concrete floors and such. Very foolish, and I had to give it up. as I started to develop some painful joint issues. On the other hand the soft PE, as taught by LT, seems genuinely useful and never caused me any trouble.
Yes, a softer more whippy action. 
To add, in our line I’ve often heard the PE fist referred to as ‘nail punches’, which is a good description I think, as that’s what they feel like - big nails being hammered in