Does your Wing Chun Employ The Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye Fist!!!
Some good condition tools I find for Both are punching a Century Bob, Small Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag. Old School conditioning of course is doing push ups on your ginger fist or phoenix eye. But personally Don’t do those. I believe if you do regular push ups you will have power enough. An Punching something with those specific hands will both make it become natural for you and condition your hands at the same time.
Now since I have been on here I have heard people say ginger fisting someone in the body like the ribs or stomach. Personally I prefer Palm strikes below the diaphragm.
Training Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye on the Century Bob is to drill Locational Spots for striking. So you get striking the weak spots so ingrain in your soul you do it on instinct. It becomes second nature.
Training Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye on the Wall Bag is strictly to condition those strikes so you don’t hurt your hand hitting someone with them!
Key Spots to hit someone
Ginger Fist - Throat, The Nose,Upper Lip of the nose, The chin, under the eyes, Between the eyes at the bridge of the nose,The neck behind the ears, maybe the temples and the neck under the jaw bone.
Phoenix Eye Fist - The Eyes and Under the eyes, Any specific points on the face repeatedly,The temples, Behind the ears on the neck, and the Diaphragm or wind pipe.
It’s hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere… What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1138460]It’s hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere… What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?
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good point…in wing chun you dont fight with your opponent or stuggle…you control him an allow him to show you where to hit…
ne way if you train to hit those spots over and over again on dummy until it becomes second nature…an practice touching those spots when you spar and chi sau…your chances of hitting those spots against a resisting opponent once you have control of becomes greater…but u dont just him him once…u keep hitting him where he is weak!
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1138460]It’s hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere… What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?
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In my opinion only:
I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources. If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I’ll have to be more specific.
The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it’s the cattle thing again.) When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I’ll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)
Hence the 4 pillars of Kulo (22pt): Seal (opponent’s) arms, control (opponent’s) legs, manage (opponent’s) momentum/structure, and destroying the opponent’s centre/balance. Once achieved, you will have plenty of time to hit the targets (plenty of time means instead on 0.1sec, you may have 0.7sec ;)).
I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources. If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I’ll have to be more specific.
The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it’s the cattle thing again.) When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I’ll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)
Hence the 4 pillars of Kulo (22pt): Seal (opponent’s) arms, control (opponent’s) legs, manage (opponent’s) momentum/structure, and destroying the opponent’s centre/balance. Once achieved, you will have plenty of time to hit the targets (plenty of time means instead on 0.1sec, you may have 0.7sec ;)).[/QUOTE]
Great points. I hope that the unenlightened read your post and comprehend why WC and other kung fu styles contain the Phoenix eye, finger strikes, etc.
I only have limited resources; namely arms, legs and the occassional head butts. Every time I strike the opponent with something, I am also weakening my defense by using up the resources.
The idea of VT is to attack and defend at the same time. We use the elbow for this but if you do not understand this idea then of course you will have a weakened defence.
If I am bigger and stronger than my opponents, and no weapons involved, I can trade punches with him randomly and I will still win; but if he is stronger than me, or carrying knives, the strategy will not work. I’ll have to be more specific.
I would try to escape. We are not superheros.
The smarter strategy would be to fully utilize the resources in defending oneself by controlling the opponent. (it’s the cattle thing again.)
What would you control exactly against an attacker that is bigger than you and may be waving a blade?
When the opponent is under control my strikes becomes more effective because I am no longer trading random punches; instead, I’ll have a higher chance to strike the specific target area with maximum destruction power using specific fists or my favourite the elbow tips (not tiny target points though.)
Maybe in the training hall but not in the real world pal!..imohhhhho
[QUOTE=Graham H;1138495]The idea of VT is to attack and defend at the same time. We use the elbow for this but if you do not understand this idea then of course you will have a weakened defence.[/QUOTE]
Lot of defensive moves are also control moves.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1138495]What would you control exactly against an attacker that is bigger than you and may be waving a blade? [/QUOTE]
Lets put aside the blade. A simple block or interception can be regarded as a controlling move, no matter what the size of the opponent. Also, by a simple angling change one can also create superior advantage (control?) against a bigger opponent.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1138495]Maybe in the training hall but not in the real world pal!..imohhhhho[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about how you train. In my case, you do not really do much until you control the opponent, to avoid counters.
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1138460]It’s hard enough to catch somebody with a fist anywhere… What makes you think that you will have the time to recognize such tiny targets and hit them with these hand shapes with an opponent that is moving in an unpredictable manner, at varying speeds, and throwing punches or kicks of his own?
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I thought the same thing until I learned how to do so. It’s really not that hard to do.
I like the Pheonix eye fist, I think it’s a little better to use when aiming for the throat for self-defense. The only thing that worries me is hitting the cranium, yikes.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138573]I thought the same thing until I learned how to do so. It’s really not that hard to do.[/QUOTE]
The thing is this, if you are constantly looking for a couple of specific spots to strike them in a specific way while doing some light sparring with your partner, you may very well be able to pull it off. However, things change a lot with speed. Think non-compliant full contact with a skilled opponent. You won’t have the luxury to see a small spot, process with your brain that you need to do a “Phoenix fist” or “Buffalo Eyebrow” or whatever, send the signal to your limb, and land it successfully on that small spot while the other guy is moving quickly and unpredictively trying to take your head off. Waaaay too much complication for when what you really need is a set of simple tools that won’t go out the window under such circumstances. Ving Tsun is about efficient simplification, not the opposite.
Beyond feasibility of such strikes in realistic scenarios, you are preoccupying your mind with chasing a specific situation out of the millions that can occur (think position, distance, speed, etc.). In a sense you are chasing hands instead of simply going after the centerline. It is preferrable to remain flexible to continuously adapt to what is going on and taking all chances offered with whatever tool was there to take them. A preoccupied mind cannot do this under big pressure.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138451]Does your Wing Chun Employ The Ginger Fist and Phoenix Eye Fist!!!
Some good condition tools I find for Both are punching a Century Bob, Small Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag. Old School conditioning of course is doing push ups on your ginger fist or phoenix eye. But personally Don’t do those… [/QUOTE]
Yeah, we use the Phoenix-eye for soft targets such as the throat and also downward toward the badder. Some may target the eye, but thats risky since you may hit the forehead. The trick is that the Phoenix-eye emerges as you contact the target and rotate your wrist forward and downward (the opposite of the upward wrist snap at the end of a typical “sun” punch). This way you feel that you are on target as you snap your wrist forward driving in the Phoenix-eye. It’s really a pretty natural kinetic linkage, expressed against natural targets and not at all like cherry picking tiny vital points.
As far as conditioning, I’d echo a word of caution. After talking with a Pak Mei guy, I foolishly disregarded my VT instructor’s advice and embarked on some of what Yoshi calls “old school” conditioning. Approaching my 56th birthday I’d worked up to 2,000 continuous Phoenix-eye punches on the wall bag and could do sets of ten Phoenix-eye push ups on a concrete floor. A month or so after my birthday, I was scarcely able to use my index fingers. Now after several months of rest, I’m almost back to normal. But no more hard style garbage for me! Maybe a younger body can tolerate that stuff, but for me, it’s just not worth the risk of permanent disability. Besides, that kind of training is not what VT/WC is about anyway.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1138605]Yeah, we use the Phoenix-eye for soft targets such as the throat and also downward toward the badder. Some may target the eye, but thats risky since you may hit the forehead. The trick is that the Phoenix-eye emerges as you contact the target and rotate your wrist forward and downward (the opposite of the upward wrist snap at the end of a typical “sun” punch). This way you feel that you are on target as you snap your wrist forward driving in the Phoenix-eye. It’s really a pretty natural kinetic linkage, expressed against natural targets and not at all like cherry picking tiny vital points.
As far as conditioning, I’d echo a word of caution. After talking with a Pak Mei guy, I foolishly disregarded my VT instructor’s advice and embarked on some of what Yoshi calls “old school” conditioning. Approaching my 56th birthday I’d worked up to 2,000 continuous Phoenix-eye punches on the wall bag and could do sets of ten Phoenix-eye push ups on a concrete floor. A month or so after my birthday, I was scarcely able to use my index fingers. Now after several months of rest, I’m almost back to normal. But no more hard style garbage for me! Maybe a younger body can tolerate that stuff, but for me, it’s just not worth the risk of permanent disability. Besides, that kind of training is not what VT/WC is about anyway.[/QUOTE]
What all that iron phoenix did that to your knuckle ? you need my DVD series
FYI a few years back in London a new Martial Art style came into the news , called Kateda. Long story short, Kateda was a huge con built on the gullible openness of guys seeking to be ‘like the masters’ .
One of the requirements was to punch a metal plate on the floor…yeah do knuckle push ups…okay…drive a black car…what ?
If you can phoenix an eye why not punch it with more force. If you can poke a single knuckle in an intercostal muscle , why not break the ribs with a punch ?
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138615]If you can phoenix an eye why not punch it with more force. If you can poke a single knuckle in an intercostal muscle , why not break the ribs with a punch ?[/QUOTE]
Specialized tools like this can be employed, but their employment is far more limited and in this case the consequences of using them are pretty harsh. You phoenix eye fist someone in the eye - they’re not likely to be coming back for more. Chances are you will burst the eye, and in the old days that was usually the end for your opponent. If the shock didn’t kill him, the likely infection probably would.
IMO specialized fist employment (to reduce risk of damaging your own weapons) typically comes after a certain degree of control is gained - you most likely wouldn’t use them in free striking engagement.
In regards as to what phoenix eyes do to the ribs, it’s more than just jacking one intercostal - they can break ribs and sublux others simultaneously if the right amount of torque is applied (I had a sihing who did this to someone is a self defense situation) basically shutting down the ability of the side of the body to respond in a normal matter. Someone who has some decent muscle mass in the rib area can shrug off a solid punch - there’s no shrugging the phoenix eye off, it’s too sharp.
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1138603]The thing is this, if you are constantly looking for a couple of specific spots to strike them in a specific way while doing some light sparring with your partner, you may very well be able to pull it off. However, things change a lot with speed. Think non-compliant full contact with a skilled opponent. You won’t have the luxury to see a small spot, process with your brain that you need to do a “Phoenix fist” or “Buffalo Eyebrow” or whatever, send the signal to your limb, and land it successfully on that small spot while the other guy is moving quickly and unpredictively trying to take your head off. Waaaay too much complication for when what you really need is a set of simple tools that won’t go out the window under such circumstances. Ving Tsun is about efficient simplification, not the opposite.
Beyond feasibility of such strikes in realistic scenarios, you are preoccupying your mind with chasing a specific situation out of the millions that can occur (think position, distance, speed, etc.). In a sense you are chasing hands instead of simply going after the centerline. It is preferrable to remain flexible to continuously adapt to what is going on and taking all chances offered with whatever tool was there to take them. A preoccupied mind cannot do this under big pressure.
Emil[/QUOTE]
Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.
An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.
The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1138656]Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.
An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.
The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.[/QUOTE]
why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don’t practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don’t, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn’t make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I’m therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.
