I tried to eye jab a guy in a barfight once while doing bouncing work. A fight broke out between 6-7 guys and 3 security. Each security guy became isolated as they where attacked by a gang of trouble makers in there late 20-early 30’s . I ended up backing up facing 3 at once…
The guy and 2 others where coming at me in a line down a narrow channel between a wall to my left and to my right bar tables packed with drinking punters, packed with people so there where limited options for space, good for me :D… they all came shoulder to shoulder so there was no ‘first come first served…’ .
I tried to eye jab the guy to the right to fend him off and missed the first time then did a inch shot again and hit him ‘somewhere’, enough so he turned his head away. I then pivoted as Bil Gee from an extended right arm and recovered my elbow and punched the guy to the far left who had then stepped forwards to hit me…I hit him solid on the jaw and he went down. The guy in the center started to yell for me to leave him alone, iow dont hit him again.
Long story short, the eye shot is so small and exact, its better to just jab a guy in the face as a messer, what jabs do without commitment to further entry due to multiple opponents. IF you hit the eye great, but you cant go searching for it, as the saying goes cause you’ll never find it when you need it, like a cab in the rain.In class you can do it all day…when you dont need a cab there’s 100’s :rolleyes:
3 on 1 against skinny me they didnt know I knew VT so came wide open…no 1 cm
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1138674]why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don’t practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don’t, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn’t make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I’m therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.[/QUOTE]
Im not closing my mind to options, but the mechanics of a phoenix eye just seem the complete opposite to the mindless ways we train to execute in fights. Just hitting with sufficient force in our ways takes a lot of focus…then asking a guy in lightning speeds to change and think …oh I will hit the temple next time he comes at me with a phoenix knuckle …can you see my point ?
Sure guys will show isolated nerve shots and its all good but its in an environment of friends , no pressure to survive the moment without anytime to think.
Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D
Nothing personal about the obtuse remark, I should have clarified myself .
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1138674]why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. [/QUOTE]
No insult - just my opinion about this kind of theories!
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1138674]
I personally don’t practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don’t, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn’t make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I’m therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.[/QUOTE]
No. There’s a huge difference from what a boxer does to what is being advocated here: A boxer resorts to the same tool (his good old punch) no matter what angle, distance, position, or timing dealt with. He targets larger areas with the same tool and it will do damage no matter whether he got you anywhere on the head or anywhere on the body. He keeps it simple (Ving Tsun!) and does not have to think first about whether to cross his fingers in a certain way before striking, nor is he looking continuously for that small spot on the inside of your left forearm…
Arguing against the phoenix eye and ginger fists, other than the extra requirement of specialised conditioning, is illogical to me. If you train it, why would there be a problem in recognizing when to engage it when the opportunity presents itself?
Do you have a problem deciding when to use a palm instead of a punch?
Differing opinions without insulting other established POVs is ok with me.
If you know how to use the ginger fist and the phoenix eye with short power- they should not be used in bar fights and similar skirmishes. Good reasons why IM didn’t teach them in the general public classes. Often people don’t even know how to make a fist or a phoenix eye fist. And- you don’t just focus on large potruding knuckle.the whole fist, the elbow and the arm and the body have their
unified roles.
joy chaudhuri
PS- Sanjuro had a nice vid on his phoenix eye- a while back
Thanks Joy,
I have had the pleasure of learning “force multipliers” from a few different perspectives and they ALL had their merits ( and cons of course).
Regardless of the principles of use one learns when introduced to them, how one ends up using them is based on how they are trained ( and forged) and used in sparring.
The PE fist in Hung Kuen is different from WC as WC is different from SPM.
Different doesn’t mean better or worse, just different.
Speciality kungs are just that and as such, they need to be tailored to the individual WITHIN the context of their system.
[QUOTE=CFT;1138687]Arguing against the phoenix eye and ginger fists, other than the extra requirement of specialised conditioning, is illogical to me. If you train it, why would there be a problem in recognizing when to engage it when the opportunity presents itself?
Do you have a problem deciding when to use a palm instead of a punch?[/QUOTE]
Palms coincide with the slt elbow ideas and we train them in many ways.
In chisao we use tan to vrt palm to make our elbows displace.
Horizontal palm / jum elbow in
Vertical palm / tan elbow out
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138736]Where do you put them ?[/QUOTE]
In the curriculum.
If a system only had what was in their forms then WC would have no knees and Karate would have no roundhouse kicks ( neither would the vast majority of TCMA).
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138745]In the curriculum.
If a system only had what was in their forms then WC would have no knees and Karate would have no roundhouse kicks ( neither would the vast majority of TCMA).[/QUOTE]
Why is a certain move not in the forms if a system use it? How can you tell that the famous saying “To be is to do, to do is to be” came from Shakespeare if we can’t find that sentence exists in any of his play?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138760]Phoenix Eye Fist doesn’t just strike the eye…If you hit the neck, temples, throat or chest with it repeately with hard strikes you will hurt them…
Specifically the Phoenix Eye fist is for striking the face below the forehead…Striking with one solid hard knuckle can definitie do some damamge![/QUOTE]
the logic is …if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead …why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?
just asking ?
I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138759]Why is a certain move not in the forms if a system use it? How can you tell that the famous saying “To be is to do, to do is to be” came from Shakespeare if we can’t find that sentence exists in any of his play?[/QUOTE]-
Shakespeare also had the famous wing chun phrase “As you like it didnt he”? And in Othello he also talks about the wing chun guy who threw a pearl away- not knowing what it was didn’t he.?
Wing chun forms are NOT a collection of techniques-they are fundamental developmental motioms from which competent wing chun people can derive operational techniques.
I doubt you would be able to knock out the average joe with your first punch…Not even Mike Tyson was that good!!!
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138771]the logic is …if you need to do 6 phoenix eyes to my forehead …why not 1 punch that will ko me and send me back 6 ft on my ar s e ?
just asking ?
I thought PE was more a Praying Mantis thing anyway.[/QUOTE]
without commitment to further entry due to multiple opponents. IF you hit the eye great, but you cant go searching for it, as the saying goes 
