Philosophical thoughts with living animals

mosquito theory

hmmmm! an interesting one.Of course there is the arguement that the mosquitoes are only trying to feed and that what they are doing is for survival , just the same as humans eating meat!and that there intention is to eat not to annoy you but to survive intended for animals of that capability.
Also that when the state of inner peace that arises from wishing happinees to all living things and for all living things to avoid suffering these creatures would become less annoying to you.
But then its easy for me to say i live near London and we dont have the weather to attract mosquitoes all that often let alone thousands in such close proximity!!
:smiley:

prana

please could you let me know where you aquired that text from, if you would be so kind? :smiley: :smiley: :eek: :rolleyes:

oh and by the way arent these little smiley face things cool!

Monks and venom…

I read somewhere that a lot of the monks that live in areas infested with snakes inject themselves with the snake venom to build up an immunity to it, they can then ‘earn their keep’ so to speak by ridding the villages of these highly poisonous snakes.
Found it on another forum under a question about Right Livelihood. Sorry but lost the link.
Don’t know how that would work with mossies though… Maybe there is a herb or something which repels them harmlessly?(I’ll try a question on the medicine board?)

Peace…

I am a pesco-lacto-ovo-insecto(yes, I insecto, I just had ant soup) vegetarian. I don’t eat birds or mammals. Let me put it this way. It is healthier to eat lower down on the food chain. This is a biological fact. But if I was in a situation where it was me vs. some animal, I’d have no problem chopping that animal up and making a hearty stew. You’ve got to do, what you’ve got to do. Just my two cents.

Fu-Pow

“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Umm..

There are many sources that will say that it is not necessarily healthier to eat lower down on the food chain. In fact, you can live a long healthy life eating meats and birds. It hasn’t been but 70 years or so that people in the West even had a choice. If you lived in an area with a supermarket, you would eat what you could get, from the local farms/agriculture etc.

Picky Picky Picky…

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Tibetain Buddhism

CULT:

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

America..

in general is a cult. The leaders of the cult encourage us to be consumers and we go beyond the call of duty :slight_smile:

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Prana.

Don’t mean to be a dick here, but exactly what do you think some of these animals would do to you if they were at the top of the food chain?

Ther aren’t many animals (especially mammals) that do not engage in Cannabilism.

Karmic Debt

Gentlemen,

I thought I would stay out of this one, but it is getting very interesting.

On the topic of mosquitoes, if you sit in the smoke of your campfire they will leave you alone. Of course you have to inhale the smoke, but that is better than being eaten alive. I have heard that if you eat garlic they will stay away from you too. I do not mean the old vampire remedy of hanging garlic around your neck. I received this information from a relatively credible source. I cannot remember where though and I have never actually tried it because eating garlic will keep just about everyone else away from you too. It might be worth a try if you are out in the bush. Years ago I read a book about an American Indian Medicine Man named Rolling Thunder. The author of the book was eaten by mosquitoes, Rolling Thunder was not. Rolling Thunder implied it had to do with your state of mind. The theory is that certain states of mind release different hormones in the body that are sensed by the animal. That is how dogs can smell tumors and fear in people. These conditions cause certain chemicals to emit from your body. The same condition is probably what keeps dangerous animals from injuring monks. I have a friend who, when he was about 3-4 years of age, picked up as diamondback rattlesnake and brought it in the house to show his mom. His mom, showing extreme self-control, calmly said, “Yes dear, very nice. Now take it outside please”. The innocence of children frequently protects them from dangerous animals.

Think of Karma as cause and effect. Every action has consequences that ripple out from it like a stone dropped into a pond. These effects occur on two levels, the physical plane and the spiritual plane. The effects of actions on the physical plane are relatively obvious. The effects of actions on the spiritual plane are not so obvious. It is not the action that affects the spiritual plane it is the attitude with which the action was performed and the emotional attachment to the action or its results. It is not what you do, but why you do it. The same action is acceptable or unacceptable depending on the reasons it is performed and Karmic debt is acquired relative to the emotional attachment the individual has. The following example is one of my favorites.

A samurai’s benefactor was killer by another samurai. The samurai pursued the villain and cornered him. As he was about to be killed, the villain spit in the samurai’s face. The samurai sheathed his sword and walked away. He could no longer kill the villain with a clear conscience. Before he was spit upon the samurai’s actions were motivated by honor and justice. The samurai code of honor and the laws of the society were the guides for his actions. After being spit upon he became personally insulted and angry. His actions would have been motivated by personal vengeance because of the insult. Therefore, his actions would not have been just, they would have been personal.

Actions in and of themselves are neither right or wrong it is reason that we perform the actions that determine whether they are correct or not.

On the spiritual plane, attitudes that you have when you die will be the attitudes you had when you lived. Those attitudes will accompany you wherever you go after death and will affect your experiences. Just as if you have certain attitudes right now and moved to another city, those attitudes would follow you and affect your experiences in the new city. This is what Karma is, the consequences of attitudes and emotional attachments that follow you after death, because they are with you at the time of death.

While the refusal to take another life needlessly, is a noble behavior. It is not necessarily a higher spiritual level. This situation is comprehensively addressed in the Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna is the main character. He is the greatest warrior of the Pandava clan whose kingdom has been usurped through the dishonest machinations of their cousins the Kaurava clan. Before the final battle of the war between the clans Arjuna rides out to the battlefield with his charioteer Krishna, who is God incarnate. Arjuna laments the injustice of being put in a position of having to kill his friends and relatives for the ownership of a kingdom. He is contemplating allowing himself to be killed rather than perpetrate an unjust act. Krishna teaches Arjuna many things, what pertains specifically to our topic is this, since everything is ultimately spirit, and the spirit is indestructible and eternal, no one is actually killed. It is not the act of killing that is wrong it is that act of killing for egocentric reasons and with emotional attachment to the results of killing that is wrong. The damage of unjust killing is to the performer of the unjust killing not the person killed. We are mere actors on the stage of life. Just as the actors survive the play people survive their life. As actors it is our responsibility to perform our roles dispassionately. That is without emotional attachment to the actions or the results of the actions we perform. It is the emotional attachment to actions and their results that causes Karma.

By extension, eating meat is neither higher nor lower on the spiritual plane. The emotional attachment to the need for either yourself or others to eat or abstain from eating meat will cause the Karmic debt, not the eating of meat in and of itself.

I am not saying that it is foolish to eat be a vegetarian. If that is your path and it works for you great!! The same goes for eating meat. I am merely saying that eating meat is not a lesser spiritual state than vegetarianism and a meateater does not acquire Karmic debt because of his actions.

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott!

Great to have you back on the forum, I hope your move went well!

Hopefully it was not an emotional attachment which drove you to make the previous post.

:wink: Just giving you a hard time buddy, great post!

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

Bai-He

It is instinctual for animals to eat their own kind, out of their own ignorance. In general, Buddhist try not to be reincarnated in the animal realm. Once there, Buddhist regards the reincarnation again to the human realm as a grain of sand in all the oceans of the world.

Then again, if you believe…

Lyle, and those who find this thread disturbing.

My sincerest apologies to you all. This is not a cult, the word with its negative connotation. In fact, Buddha specifically taught you should not listen to his words, or take anything literally. As Scott has explained elsewhere, Buddhism is a path of experience. When you experience and see it for yourself, then you believe in it, otherwise, you discover for yourself. Like I said, you are all smart and intellectual people, not bored housewives. This is not here to shove crap down your throat. It is for those who have chosen to become vegetarian or even considering it.

Buddha taught only for those people who wish to learn, to remain conscious of the breath (Mahayanna teachings). Simple as that, and any realisations that you get out of that, is your own benefit and belief.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

Lyle

The difference between a cult and a religion is mainstream acceptance. Buddhism is accepted as a religion. Just like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. etc. etc.

cxxx:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Not only that Buddhism is considered one of the GREAT religions. Buddhism came before Christianity and Islam. Buddhism has divided into many different sects. Buddha was not sure he wanted to teach what he had learned when he reached Nirvana because it was too difficult to explain. Words cannot adequately explain an experience. Each sect of any religion is a development from men interjecting their own thoughts and experiences into the religion. Some claim divine revelation to justify their changes. The purpose of spirituality is for the person to bring themselves into accord with the divine, not to impose our own will on the divine. However, since each person is a unique individual with his own talents, interests and perspectives, we will each interpret and express our spiritual experiences in our own unique manner. Therefore we end up with offshoots of religions. Because a sect is an offshoot does not necessarily invalidate its message. I personally care less what religion a person follows, I look for sincerity and commitment to the spiritual path. If sincerity and commitment are present we will all meet at the common goal regardless of where we each began. If it is important to Prana and others to not eat meat and it helps them in their spiritual journey, then it is a good path for them to follow. It hurts no one. Vegetarians have a right to express their opinion as well as everyone else. I think that the tendency for vegetarians to believe they are somehow more spiritually advanced than meat eaters is what offends some people. Remember that Christ, Moses and Muhammad were all meat eaters.

Nexus,

Thank you for the welcome back and the elbow in the ribs. The move was grueling. I slept 14 hours last night because of all the exercise I received moving everything, not mention the dehydration due to the heat. I will send you a list of books in a day or two, if you are still interested. E-mail me your address.

Sincerely,

Scott

repelling mossies with the mind…

i believe if you are truly resolved to not harm the mossies, to not generate karma with them , then perhaps your state of mind will reach them and they’ll leave you alone.(this would be ideal)

HOWEVER, i think you must be really resolved…that if they do bite you and you get malaria you will accept it as your own karma and not feel bitter.if you’re not so resolved it’s better to take steps to keep them away (or yes, even kill them i think), otherwise you may generate even more negativity.

we live in an (arguably) imperfect world.we must take life of some kind to live (even if it’s vegetables)…if we don’t we’ll starve and take our own life.
so…life is painful and difficult.
if we do the best we can with good intentions we can improve (maybe one day even transcend the need for food), but i think we need to accept that things aren’t ideal, otherwise if you try to be perfect and can’t you’ll just generate more dissatisfaction and make it less likely we’ll progress.

the middle path applies here too i believe.
1)if we take life without thought, that’s “bad”
2)if we become totally obsessed with taking no life at all we may get disturbed and make no progress/ be less useful in the world

___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”

Amen to that !

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

another story…

a tibetan monk was giving a sermon on loving kindness, compassion.loving all creatures, doing no harm, not killing etc.
when he finished and went to leave there was a dog lying in the doorway…
…so he kicked it in the guts and it ran away yelping.

thoughts?
(BTW i’ve heard this as a traditional story, and also spoken to someone who said it actually happened when he was studying buddhism )

___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”

now all i need to do is apply that in my own life and i’ll be laughing!
( the balance, not the dog kicking)
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”

that is depressing :frowning:

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha andzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

I find that kind of funny actually :slight_smile: Maybe the dog was listening to the lesson?

cxxx:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

well, i think there’s a number of possibilities…

  1. he was an arsehole
  2. it was a lesson in not taking any viewpoint to extremes/accepting we live in an imperfect world and cannot always do the right thing
  3. a lesson in not judging by the superficial
  4. sometimes if a dog gets in your way you’ve just gotta kick it to get it to move

maybe it was a form of zen direct transmission
or maybe he just liked kicking dogs

___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”