Sorry I made a mistake so I deleted it.
Needle in Cotton (NiC) or Meen Loy Jum
This is what I know of the NiC, it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have te purer traditions. Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).
For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms, which emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.
As for its theory and meaning, well I’m not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that.
Charles,
About Jan, don’t know so much about the kick-boxing part, but I do know they have a group that is still hard-core into traditional MA. I don’t mean that Jan does white crane, but our NCK has a heavy WC influence, you can see from our forms. Whereas other NCK tend to have more of a TaiZu/LoaHan influence.
WC spelling, well Fujian pronounciation is ‘Peh Hok’, and the Mandarin is ‘BaiHe’. Yes I have heard of the Northern Crane, but have not seen it. Also the way they use the hands, fingers together, other than Feeding Crane, I don’t think the other FWC use it, certainly not our school, but I may be mistaken.
Dont want to be a trouble maker
But GM Jimmy Woo of kung fu san soo …or tsoi li ho fut ga hung or whatever …
just my opinion but does he teach some choy lay fut or white crane ,lama pai ,hop gar whatever the name … a kind of… put the name you want:D
without the forms …the traditionnal forms …very important to learn the forms
No forms you are not a real one …
Secret is in the forms …dont forget …do you really believe me …
Steeve
ohhhhhhh about the southern crane…goju ryu or uechi ryu(seem more southern mantis) are not bad onn it…
But the feeding crane of taiwan is very cool …do you know about the flying crane FEI HE …of Malaysia
Steeve
Steeve, you are a little confusing the way you are writing; however, I think the main points you are trying to make are as follows:
[LIST=1]
Is the Malaysian Flying Crane part of Silart (can’t spell it) or is it a unique system?
Hi BOH,
… it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have the purer traditions.
… For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms …
This holds true for Tibetan White Crane also.
Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).
… our other WC forms emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.
As for its theory and meaning, well I’m not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that.
One day we are going to have to compare and contrast our styes. And, I am going to have to talk Jan into introducing me to his teacher one day.
But anyway. There is another Crane style called Fighting Crane, sometimes it is considered one of the 5 Cranes of Southern China (including HK and Taiwain).
This could mean that a single style has two names, one is the child of the other, or they are two different syles. This also makes me wounder if the designation of the 5 Cranes was more one system as oppose to it meaning the only/or-main 5 Crane styles in Southern China.
When you look at Hung Gar, it has elements of Feeding Crane. I think because of the C.Revolution and Wushu, the Northern Cane has merged into other styles and has probably died-away as a unique system. This has happened to most Northern systems. And, considering this is where both the military and the Holy Mountains are (the birth places of Chinese Martial arts), you would expect there to be a lot more, and varied, Northern systems then Southern, but the appearance is the opposite.
From what I remember, like most Northern styles, Northern Cane did not try to look like the animal it got its inspiration from. It became just a variation of Long Fists. This would have contributed to its disappearance. I think, Hung Gar is probably the closes the Southern Chinese got to preserving Long Fists. I say this because most of the techniques are there but the strategy is typical Southern Chinese. This has, of course, cause changes to the way you execute the techniques.
Hi htowndragon,
Comming from Houston, you must be from Yang Jwing Ming’s (I can’t spell) line. If so, you would not have NiC b/c YJM was a specialest in one Crane style, Shakking. NiC would have been introduced to the Cranes schools that had the Flying Crane as a disicipline or substyle, thus Boh school. Boh school combines the 5 Cranes, and this includes Flying Crane.
actually
i am hop gar, not from yang jwing mings white crane though i have seen many of his people around here.
[QUOTE=htowndragon;877982]i am hop gar, not from yang jwing mings white crane though i have seen many of his people around here.[/QUOTE]
Sorry about that!
[U] Needle in Cotton (NiC) or Meen Loy Jum
This is what I know of the NiC, it is suppose to be the highest art form of the White Crane style, taught only to advanced students. Yes it is an important part of FWC, certainly for our school, and a few other FWC schools I know who have te purer traditions. Our Ngor Chor Kun (NCK, 5 Ancestor) also has a NiC form, also at advanced level, pprobably inherited from its WC component. The fact that Lama Pai has this certainly lends credit to the shared-ancestry or corss-fertilization arguments above ;-).
For us, the NiC is practised to develop Qi, and in practice, it is slow, flowing and accompanied by coordinated breathing. This is quite different from our other WC forms, which emphasize rapid, vibrating movements - more representative of training/applying fa-Jing. I see its also done slow in Lama Pai.
As for its theory and meaning, well I’m not expert enough, but it has pretty deep implications. One way to look at it is as a Yin/Yang thing, Yin - being the soft, yielding, cotton-ish component, and the yang being the hard, forceful opposite. One interpretation is of course that presented by Charles in a previous post, but I think it goes far more than that. [/U]
This has to be the biggest bag of bulldust to surface here in recent memory.:eek:
Quentin Fong taught that Needle in Cotton is for practicing kam na simultaneous evading and seizing/pulse attacking drills.
jd
[QUOTE=jdhowland;878023]Quentin Fong taught that Needle in Cotton is for practicing kam na simultaneous evading and seizing/pulse attacking drills.
jd[/QUOTE]
This can also be practiced while doing NiC. For all you FWC guys, I was taught that NiC represented the actual Crane style in TWC (PHP). In PHP, before NiC, there is just Ape style.
[jdhowland]
that’s a different but ineresting interpretation/application of NiC.
for us, appart from the Qi development aspects, its applied with Qi/Jing to neutralise (especially ‘hard’) attacks, to counter iron-shirt defenses and then follow thru with nerve point attacks.
[hungmunhingdai],
I checked your previous posts/threads - you didn’t start any threads and most of yr posts are obscure one-liners. No personal info? You are just a little (Ozzie) troll, come on, you can do better; go practice somewhere else and when you grow up, then hopefully you can can pretend to equal some of the more renowned and infamous trolls here… and get banned!
Besides, I’m puzzled by your handle, in very bad Cantonese, it translate to “Hung-Brother”, are you referring to your sexual prowess or did someone kick you in the goolies?
hi Charles
you’ll find Sifu Henry ‘interesting’, he’s not your typical venerable Chinese GM, although he’s into the mid/late 50’s. I’ll leave that surprise for you to find out! There is another person you might meet thru Jan, a senior instructor of Sifu Henry, his name is Kjell Knutsson (Swedish). Good friend of mine and we have trained together. He occassionally teaches a class in Copenhagen.
From our GM Chee Kim Thong, he never mentioned the 5 Cranes. From what I can gather it was just one Crane, and as I mentioned before WC, may have predated Southern Shaolin.
The Northern WC, to me is quite a different beast. I (have always) thought its principles are different, from my little knowledge gained from watching YouTube, and (I heard of) its relation(?) to Tung Bui (Northern Ape) now that you mentioned it! The long versus the short strokes, the almost entirely circular vs the circular + linear techniques (of N vs S WC) and different power genaration techniques.
Then from some of you here, I learnt that there are similarities! The NiC, the spiralling Jing from the legs… well live and learn, now I just need to ‘touch hands’ with a Northern WC guy!
Having said that, let me relate an anectdote that hilights the complexities we have discussed, on the cross fertilization of Trad. Chinese MA during the last century …
Just today, I met up with a senior Wing Chun (WCh) instructor, and it changed my perception of WCh, as my past experiance with WCh has been the more dominant Hong Kong flavour. This guy was from Vietnam/Hanoi, his lineage was from Fat San (spelling?) and his GM came to Vietnam in the 1930s. As we exchanged display of forms, his looked very different from the HK WCh. In fact looked similar to our NCK and FJWC! He then told us that his GM had 2 teachers, one was of course WCh, but the other was from the Northern ‘Internal’ Arts (well I have always debated that point/terminolgy but, let’s not digress…), and so his WCh had influences of TsingYi, BaGua and TaiJi!
Sure enough when we ‘touch hands’ I could ‘feel’ it. He was using the stance rooting of TsingYi, exerting (turning) power from the ‘Kua’ (pelvis), body movement of TaiJi and hand techniques of WCh (with good elbow control like FJWC) plus the ‘heaviness’ of TsingYi (not hardness). I was pleasantly surpised! Very different from previous HK WCh that I have touched hands with…
He also said that his WCh forms are influenced by the 5-animal forms of TsingYi (Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, Dragon) and he demonstrated the form.
A wonderful exchange, and its like discovering a ‘lost’ art! Well its goes to show, if WCh is like this, then the “Many Cranes” scenario could be similar… as its lineage is even older.
[QUOTE=jdhowland;878023]Quentin Fong taught that Needle in Cotton is for practicing kam na simultaneous evading and seizing/pulse attacking drills.
jd[/QUOTE]
Hi,
I’ve sent you a PM.
[QUOTE=boh;878028][jdhowland]
that’s a different but ineresting interpretation/application of NiC.
for us, appart from the Qi development aspects, its applied with Qi/Jing to neutralise (especially ‘hard’) attacks, to counter iron-shirt defenses and then follow thru with nerve point attacks.
[hungmunhingdai],
I checked your previous posts/threads - you didn’t start any threads and most of yr posts are obscure one-liners. No personal info? You are just a little (Ozzie) troll, come on, you can do better; go practice somewhere else and when you grow up, then hopefully you can can pretend to equal some of the more renowned and infamous trolls here… and get banned!
Besides, I’m puzzled by your handle, in very bad Cantonese, it translate to “Hung-Brother”, are you referring to your sexual prowess or did someone kick you in the goolies?[/QUOTE]
First there is the truth and then there is what you are saying:eek:
Hi boh
I will be going to Copenhagen the end of next month to help start a Wushu association in Denmark. I hope to meet Jan then.
I have been doing some digging to find stuff on the Crane/Stork style that would have come from the North. I have not found much. This is the closes I could come:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=397WPlZG120
I was taught a lot more kicking, jumping, and standing on one leg. But, then again – It was my uncle that introduced me to this style. He taught me the basic principles and techniques. Now I am beginning to wounder where did my uncle get it from, since I can’t find others teaching it. I needed something new for my finial exam in shaolin Chuan, so my uncle felt I should present it to my teacher. The only credibility I have is that My Shaolin Chuan teacher was please with the stuff and passed me.
The idea of one crane is not uncommon. I have met others that hold a view that the different Cranes are just different Froms in a single system.
The Northern WC, to me is quite a different beast. I (have always) thought its principles are different, from my little knowledge gained from watching YouTube, and (I heard of) its relation(?) to Tung Bui (Northern Ape) now that you mentioned it! The long versus the short strokes, the almost entirely circular vs the circular + linear techniques (of N vs S WC) and different power genaration techniques.
Now don’t confuse Northern WC with TWC (PHP) they should be different too.
That WCh guy sounds really interesting.
the “Many Cranes” scenario could be similar… as its lineage is even older.
I agree
Well
If so, then yes it is true, “the secrets of kung fu styles are in their forms.” And, the connections you presented are being considered true.
The only secret is training training training …Forms are a good solo training …for train the endurance some physical attribute and the core of ur style… but dont teach the reality …I mean you need to do two men drills and sparring…
[QUOTE=Steeeve;878192]The only secret is training training training …Forms are a good solo training …for train the endurance some physical attribute and the core of your style… but don’t teach the reality …I mean you need to do two men drills and sparring…[/QUOTE]
What you are saying is true. But keep in mind:
Training is no secret, that has been the key to success in every sport. Forms tell you what to train; and often they are a mystery.
Charles
Dont know what to said
Forms are just there for solo training......no mystery .....no secret whatever...
And forms teach the mechanist of the style ....
just a anology here ...in music you learne note ...do re mi ....now whatever the style of music you play ....the note are the same ,,,,,,
:)
Steeve
Hi Steeve,
At advance levels in Kungfu teachers present new techniques, not alone but as part of a form. Where there might be 50 new techniques for you to master. These techniques are the secrets of a style. Some teachers don’t explain the forms, some do, and for different reasons.
In PHP whole new strategies are hidden in diferent forms. This is the same for most other systems too.
Charle l
Let me the time todo a good english writing(text) for response …about what you said
dont want to be misundersttood.....
Steeve