ok, so Fukien Bak Hok is predominantly a short-hand system.
Hop-Ga/Lama is predominantly a long-arm system-BUT it also has short hand techniques. In fact, many are similar to Fukien Bak Hok/Wing/Weng Chun. You see what essentially is bong, tan, fook,pak, biu etc, so there must have been some cross pollenization..?
And yet, Fukien Bak Hok does not seem to have the long-arm techniques…like they decided, “nah, we’ll just keep these right here..”
I am interested in your views on this subject.
Well…a lot of the Bak Hok people have been Hakka.
Hello Ten Tigers
In my line of TWC we have the 4 crane methods (Sleeping, Calling, Flying, Feeding). But then again, why shouldn’t we. After all the Lama Jin Bo Liu Tou was supposed to have been Wu Mei. I know most people like to think that FWC and TWC are seperate “animals” but with a shared lineage how could there not be simularities. Both methods employ a version of “Needle in Cotton” as advanced training.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1246615]Hello Ten Tigers
In my line of TWC we have the 4 crane methods (Sleeping, Calling, Flying, Feeding). But then again, why shouldn’t we. After all the Lama Jin Bo Liu Tou was supposed to have been Wu Mei. I know most people like to think that FWC and TWC are seperate “animals” but with a shared lineage how could there not be simularities. Both methods employ a version of “Needle in Cotton” as advanced training.[/QUOTE]
this is not the first time I read about the Fujian Bak Hok having a “Needle in the Cotton” kind of form but I have never seen it performed nor mentioned by people of the style. Would that be a characteristic of all the Fukian Bak Hok styles or just one?
Any more info I could tap to on that?
Thanks
Hello Gru,
I have seen the “Needle in Cotton” form of FWC once. It was called “Fair Lady Threads a Needle” or something like that. Not sure exactly what branch of FWC it was. It was performed in a line and was done softer than their normal stuff. Similar to Flying Crane style. Can’t remember who it was, must have been 25+ years ago. Interesting none the less. I do remember reading an artle once that was posted by Martin Watts, where an elder of the Yongchun clan was discussing the “Cotton Needle” method. If I remember correctly the gentleman said that it was a rare system of “Long Limbed” crane from the north, but not Pak Hok Pai. Possibly Flying Crane.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1246647]Hello Gru,
I have seen the “Needle in Cotton” form of FWC once. It was called “Fair Lady Threads a Needle” or something like that. Not sure exactly what branch of FWC it was. It was performed in a line and was done softer than their normal stuff. Similar to Flying Crane style. Can’t remember who it was, must have been 25+ years ago. Interesting none the less. I do remember reading an artle once that was posted by Martin Watts, where an elder of the Yongchun clan was discussing the “Cotton Needle” method. If I remember correctly the gentleman said that it was a rare system of “Long Limbed” crane from the north, but not Pak Hok Pai. Possibly Flying Crane.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the imput.
Bak Hok/Hap Gar/Long/Short
ok, so Fukien Bak Hok is predominantly a short-hand system.
Hop-Ga/Lama is predominantly a long-arm system-BUT it also has short hand techniques. In fact, many are similar to Fukien Bak Hok/Wing/Weng Chun. You see what essentially is bong, tan, fook,pak, biu etc, so there must have been some cross pollenization..?
And yet, Fukien Bak Hok does not seem to have the long-arm techniques…like they decided, “nah, we’ll just keep these right here..”
I am interested in your views on this subject.
Not to get too indepth…According the the oral traditions of my lineage the “short hand” method of the crane has it’s roots in the older “long fist” method of crane. Basically Fang Qiniang was taught advanced “short hand” skills by Jin Bo Liu Tou that were based on the “Cotton Needle” method and that FWC was initially a set of Sanshi skills.
Makes one think…
Some systems start of LONG to end up short and other times they start off short.
It is debatable if it is best to start off short or to start off long and then shorten up.
There are pros and cons to both methods.
The long arm systems develop along the full range of (exaggerated) movement so when they shorten up, the core base strength is there.
This methods takes longer to develop.
The short arm systems are hard to get at first and take more getting used to and, in some cases, some people never “get it”, but those that do get there quicker.
The okinawan karate systems start long and end short, most “boxing” systems are like that too ( Boxing, MT, etc), even “real” TKD.
cotton needle
[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;1246642]this is not the first time I read about the Fujian Bak Hok having a “Needle in the Cotton” kind of form but I have never seen it performed nor mentioned by people of the style. Would that be a characteristic of all the Fukian Bak Hok styles or just one?
Any more info I could tap to on that?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
I met a Fukien Shaolin practitioner years ago who provided me with a list of their forms. It started with Three battles and ended with Cotton Needle. I asked him about this and he said that Cotton Needle was considered the most advanced training of his system.
a spectrum
[QUOTE=dlcox;1246615]Hello Ten Tigers
In my line of TWC we have the 4 crane methods (Sleeping, Calling, Flying, Feeding). But then again, why shouldn’t we. After all the Lama Jin Bo Liu Tou was supposed to have been Wu Mei. I know most people like to think that FWC and TWC are seperate “animals” but with a shared lineage how could there not be simularities. Both methods employ a version of “Needle in Cotton” as advanced training.[/QUOTE]
This is an excellent thread. Thank you. I have thought about this for a lot of years and decided that throughout all of the White Crane arts, that they are all part of the same spectrum, specializing in either very short, medium, or very long bridge, for training purposes. At the advanced levels, or level of command of one’s own training progression, they start to look pretty much the same and if not a direct training application of Cotton Needle, there is at least the implied influence of Cotton Needle in all the various hues of the White Crane spectrum.
Besides the Four Crane Methods you cite, there is also a Shaolin Black Crane method that consists of four sets and is entirely evasion and grappling in form.
Is this the form you guys mean?
cross-pollen
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1246610]ok, so Fukien Bak Hok is predominantly a short-hand system.
Hop-Ga/Lama is predominantly a long-arm system-BUT it also has short hand techniques. In fact, many are similar to Fukien Bak Hok/Wing/Weng Chun. You see what essentially is bong, tan, fook,pak, biu etc, so there must have been some cross pollenization..?
And yet, Fukien Bak Hok does not seem to have the long-arm techniques…like they decided, “nah, we’ll just keep these right here..”
I am interested in your views on this subject.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for starting this interesting thread. I noticed long ago that all of the “attack hands” of White Crane are basically the same throughout the White Crane spectrum. Divergence of technique occurs within the striking range. In Southern family of Gung Fu arts there are recurring themes that Fuken Shaolin, Pan Gai Noon, White Crane, Southern Dragon, Southern Mantis, etc. share. It has to do with stance, bridge and striking range, and rising-swallowing-spitting. White Crane of Tibetan origin shares the same attack hands as the Southern family of arts, and is different in that it does not share the principle of rising-swallowing-spitting, utilizes the wheel-turning-body, long range striking, kicks from footwork, and footwork for timing interdiction.
You could write a book analyzing the similarities and differences in the White Crane spectrum. All the best.
It’s interesting to note that the “Needle in Cotton” or more specifically the “Silk Gauze Wrapping” is an original concept in TWC, an original concept of crane in general. “Three Battles” is the foundation of FWC. However, “Three Battles” is a concept found hidden in TWC via the Xiao Wu Xing Quan (Small 5 Patterns Fist) that was re-developed by Wang Yan Lin. Xiao Wu Xing was based on another concept called Tie Xian (Iron Wire). This was taught by Sheng Long Lao Zong, aka: Jin Gou & Li Husi. Sheng Long taught this method to Tie Qiao San. There are 2 methods of “Cotton Needle”, Hard and Soft. These are concepts based on the original Trul Khor exercises of Tibetan Yoga and the 6 exercises of Naropa. If one looks closely the concepts are evident in both systems of crane. Now stands the debate, which came first FWC or TWC? Who is the mother and who is the son?
An interesting tidbit of information.
“Needle in Cotton” is based on the Yantra Yoga of Padmasambhava, called Nyida Khajor (Union of the Sun and Moon) by his disciple Vairocana, the highest expression of Phowa.
Yantra Yoga / Hatha Yoga - Instrument Union, Sun and Moon Union [India]
Nyida Khajor - Union of the Sun and Moon [Tibet]
Chang Yang Bai He Rou Ruan Qigong - Moon and Sun White Crane Soft and Gentle Energy Work [China]**
** Chang E is the Moon Goddess and Tai Yang Shen is the Sun God, to reflect a more Daoist theme this was later changed to Shuang Yang Bai He Rou Ruan Quanfa (Frost and Sun White Crane Soft and Gentle Boxing). It is the dualism of Yin and Yang.
Many may recognize Shuang Yang Bai He Rou Ruan as a FWC practice.
It is a concept heavily influenced by the Bon practice of Chod and the highest expression of Phowa, which is considered a less desirable practice as compared to Bardo…But this is a topic of another discussion.
There are three main versions of “Needle in Cotton” in TWC these are:
Dou Sheng Luo Gong Fa Quan - Gauze String in a Pouch Skills Method Fist
Mian Chuan Li Zhen Gong Quan - Cotton Thread Wrapped Around a Needle Skills Fist
Chuo Mai Zhi Gong Fa Quan - Stabbing Vein Finger Skills Method Fist
6 Exercise of Naropa
- Chong Fu Ping - Full Like a Vase
- Xuan Fu Lun - Revolve Like a Wheel
- Wan Fu Gou - Bend Like a Hook
- Fang Fu Jian - Unleash Like an Arrow
- Dou Fu Gou - Shake Like a Dog
- Zhan Fu Chi - Stretch Like Wings
These are 6 specific methods of “Cotton Needle” energy cultivation and expression found in both FWC and TWC.
agree
Everything you write in the last two posts is reasonable. Small Five Animals have a lot of attack hands similar to Hung Gar Iron Wire and Three Battles. Three Battles and Hung Gar utilize rise-sink-swallow-spit. Tibetan White Crane does not. Tibetan White Crane is sinew training with the chest kept open. The lock comes from a different source than rise-sink-swallow-and spit. The source of Tibetan martial arts power generation is uniquely different as compared to the Chinese martial arts. Not saying better. Just saying different.
I could say a lot more about Cotton Needle and Tibetan martial arts in general but will not write a book on this forum. One of seven articles I had prepared as a series for Inside Kung Fu magazine, before it went out of business, is about Cotton Needle and it’s origin. If Gene wants to review this article he can contact me. I am willing to publish it. All the best.
SKM
SKM,
Thanks for the reply, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the origins of the “Cotton Needle” method. I would like to compare notes.
Any other Tibetan/Fujian crane stylists want to chime in? I would like to hear any supporting/opposing views on the subject.
odd thing-in the beiginning stages of Jook Lum SPM, (at least in the Lam Wing-Fay version I am practicing) the short power is at the beginning of the chain-short arm, short power. Later on in the system, the power is generated at the end of the chain. Long (er) arm, short power.
Hello,
TenTigers
odd thing-in the beiginning stages of Jook Lum SPM, (at least in the Lam Wing-Fay version I am practicing) the short power is at the beginning of the chain-short arm, short power. Later on in the system, the power is generated at the end of the chain. Long (er) arm, short power.
Can I ask why you think this is done this way and reasoning behind it?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1246666]Is this the form you guys mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOTkv0o47RA[/QUOTE]
Yes that’s it …as in general terms
[QUOTE=SKM;1246662]I met a Fukien Shaolin practitioner years ago who provided me with a list of their forms. It started with Three battles and ended with Cotton Needle. I asked him about this and he said that Cotton Needle was considered the most advanced training of his system.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your kind Imput; could you be more specific on what is intended with Fukien Shaolin practicioner? What style exactly?
Thank you