guy open a school in the local strip mall. Down the street at the other strip mall is another school of similar(maybe not) style. An instructor ffrom the old school pays the new school a visit after the last night class. The 2 chit-chat about this and that, find out they have smilar backgrounds, been at some of the same tourney’s fought some of the same guys. “let’s throw on the pads and see what’s up,” say the established instructor. they spar for a few, it’s soon over. one guy is a fraud one is the real deal, or they are both equally good. no one got hurt, maybe. friendly challenge is good.
but remember that we are all part of a group of people that are notorious for having huge egos, bad attitudies and very narrow opinions. what’s worse is that little is done to correct this in some of the more well-known people. add that these egos are rarely actually tested, and that all the bull**** that has negatively affected the martial arts is often more prevalent than the positive stuff.
take the emin boztepe and william cheung feud. originally started as a feud between leung ting and william cheung, boztepe took it on himself to do something about it and challenged cheung. the sick attempt at a challenge match the two had settled little, as both sides argue that they were victorious. since the video footage offered doesn’t show anyone all that successful in defeating the other, we’re back to square one.
flash forward to the present, and boztepe and cheung still don’t like each other, 15 years later. i’ve even heard that boztepe has renewed his challenge to cheung, a fact that impresses me further knowing that emin is about 40 and cheung is pushing, if not past, 60.
now both these men are expert students in their styles - emin has his ebmas (no LT/KK vs. EB comments, please) and cheung has his twc - and both are supposedly icons and role models for their students. the question is, what role are they modeling? that of the humble instructor who cares more for his students and their growth, or that of the flighty instructor who constantly has something to prove and seeks out conflict so they can prove it?
again, i like the idea of challenges - they’re a great way to practice what you preach and really test what you have. i’m just not all that confident that most martial artists are mature enough to handle themselves when their reputation and pride are on the line.
If the world wwere full of friendly challenges, they’d be great. But that’s not always the way it works out. Remember the most agressive student you ever had? You know the one. About 6 months of experience elsewhere. With some guy into S.C.A.R.S. or some other ‘realistic training’. And everytime you explain anything it’s followed with “But couldn’t you stomp the knee and cripple him as you drove a knifehand into this eyes? That’ll cause him to drop so you can get a decent rear naked choke and break the neck simultaneously.” (Dude, he just shook my hand! Seriously, that happened in a class demonstration on wrist locks and responses) Well he learned that attitude from someone.
When someone walks into your dojo/kwoon/dojang for the first time and challenges, you never know. They could be the taichi instructor just looking to push hands, they could be the BJJ guy looking for light rolling with submission, they could be the guy that the police forced to close down a scholl and leave town following his 3rd assault charge in 6 months(true story 'bout that guy)
And all it takes is starting friendly on one side and the other deciding it’s a streetfight and things get nasty in a matter of seconds. While I have pretty good coverage, I am liable for what goes on in that room. I love to trade techniques and workout with other MA system guys. But I don’t spar on the first night with them. Ever. I don’t know if I need to tone it down or crank it up til I’ve watched them a few times.
As to testing/proving my skills. I invite instructors from all types of schools to do seminar work in my class. We even do round robin nights where 3-4 guest sifus/senseis/rollers/badasses/etc. are in there.(That class is a blast by the way!!) My students get to see my training and someone elses and decide for themselves. For some the Krav Maga route is too violent, for some aikido is not effective enough. Would me kicking the crap out of an aikidoka or vice versa and same with krav maga stylist prove anything? Doubt it. The other big thing I do is encourage my students to go attend other classes. Funny thing is-that attitude keeps more students than it costs.
There is a rival school here(ain’t it always the way) constantly talking trash. I have invited them to come in and back it up or meet at a local gym, whatever. No response. Have invited them to do the seminar route. No response. Have encouraged my students to visit their class and take it if interests them more. They’ve done this on numerous occasions and 3 times now the students told me without my asking that they were saying what I taught was crap. Though they’ve never been in my class. Funny thing is the students made up their own minds. No challenge necessary.
Gotta admit, it’s **** tempting though. But then again, what I have in mind in the dark of night isn’t exactly a friendly challenge either. So I guess I’d have to say I think challeneges are sort of silly. I am all in favor of crosstraining and the exchange of ideas. All for testing things out in the ring, with friends or NHB. But I hope that the days of challenges are mostly gone.
well that goes to prove maybe I have a slightly swollen dome. And true maybe most people aren’t as openly friendly as I. And also spotlighted my naivete. But I would HOPE, top level MA’s would have a lil’ more class and restraint to just have a friendly exchange thru the touching of hands. but once again, i am a lil naive, and probably would fall victim to the knee smash knife hand combo during a courtesy bow.
I was at a tourny and seen 2 guys beat the crap out of each other and shared a hug and sat together and chatted about the experience. Same tourny, a guy caught a bloody nose and afterwards ran to the locker room bichin a fit and wouldn’t accept the other guys apology. maybe schools should be a lil more selective about there students. off topic i know, but maybe that cryin dude will oneday be an instructor.
Well, as we all should realize, nothing is ever perfect. Rubthebuddha, and Myosimka, you both have very valid and very good points. Its true, not all things can go the way we plan, and we have the risk of getting hurt or hurting someone when we do what we do, in play or whatever.
I share Suntzus’ opinion in that I hope most martial artist are respectful and mature enough to understand what we are trying to discuss here, that we need a way of maintaining quality in our training and in our society, Martial Arts. Right now, we have no governing body, some systems have one way, some have others, and some have none. The challenge system can help to keep things honest, and I hope promote fellowship and responsibility amongst our martial arts brothers and sisters.
Myosimka, your point on liability and all of that is well taken, but we dont always sign a contract stating we wont sue, when we spar. You may not know who you are dealing with, and obviously your will is your own, and if someone who gives you a bad feeling walks in, you have the right to turn him away or down.
I see this as more of an oppurtunity to bring martial artist closer together as a community. That way I can walk into a karate/TKD dojo, and spar with a few people to test my skill against thier style, etc… but also to maintain a certain level of respect and ability amongst sifu. There are a lot of people out there saying they know a lot more then they do.
there have been many a times when I have driven past a school and wondered if I’m as good as they are and vice versa and there is only one way to tell. Sad, that I may look like some a-hole for wanting to play.
I’ve thought a lot about this, and I feel that, when I am a teacher, I will take challenges. However, I will only take them from serious fighters wishing to test their style and my own, and, in order to challenge me, I will expect the following(you guys are probably going to think I’m nuts):
-The challenger and I will set a date. In the morning of that date, we will get together and stretch.
-Then, we will sit for tea, and talk about our lives, our families and experiences, our fighting experiences, our goals, etc.
-We will then have the challenge, with seconds, just to keep everyone honest.
-Afterwards, regardless of who wins, we will attend to our potential injuries, and each person will be expected to point out the strengths of the other.
-Finally, we go someplace good for lunch, my treat.
If someone isn’t willing to plan all that, then they shouldn’t waste my time.
myosimka did a good job at explaining it. I have fought many people from other styles and it proves nothing.
Also when egos are involved you never know what the other person will do. I fought on guy who was trying to impress his student by fighting with me. he was a 5th in Ju-Jitsu and I had just gotten my 5th in Kempo. When he could not submit me he went to fishhooks. I grabed him by the groin and he released me. in the end no one won but we had fun (I had a back ground in JJ so I was not doing something I hadnt been trained for)
In another school I came in to fight with the students and the instructor decided it was a good night for full contact. What was suppose to be a friendly sparring session turned into a slug fest. The students just got to see to guys trading shots, it proved nothing.
In a challenge what may be agreed upon rules can change and you find yourself fighting for you life or taking one.
This does not prove that one is better qualified to teach, or knows his information. Its not a quality control method.
Challenges may sound cool or look good in the movies, but when it comes time, win or lose you will still go home hurt against a good fighter.
I have had many injuries while fighting, countless bloody noses, black eyes, Ive had both shoulders out a couple of times and continued to fight. (And these were friends) Finding out how good you are isnt always fun. (But I love it still:))
Do you mean within the dojo or dojo against dojo? I’ve heard stories of dojo wars but never have taken part in one. My teacher did have a ‘candle burning’ for some challengers that wanted him out of the town he was teaching in.
School to school challenges…
That’s what tournaments and opens are for.
That kind of stuff doesn’t happen too much at all anymore.
Seems the rivalry is more in the in-style politics now.
well, except for one poster here who used to meet anyone by the pond at 11:45 on the night of the full moon, if it was a sunday, in may and only if three pigeons, two squirrels a duck and an empty yogurt cup were present.
:rolleyes:
I’ve heard stories as recently as a few years ago were there was some problems at a lion dance tournament in singapore or somewhere in malaysia. Spear through a drum or something like that.
Not much in the way of count danté stuff these day.
i must admit that the stories i hear about challenge matches that happened 20 years ago very intriging. especially if the person telling me was involved. seems so movie esque. its like how could chinatown in the 70’s and 80’s been so different from now?
I fought a guy from a local TKD school about 18 months ago. He came into our school on a Friday night and pretty much challenged us. He said he wasn’t allowed to spar anymore at his school because he was too rough, and he wanted to know if we would like some lessons. I was the senior student present, so I accepted.
Folks wander into my master’s school all the time … it usually equals a new student or two. At 62 my master insists on handling these things personally – something that I hope changes very soon.
In the mid/late 80’s when I was spending some time with the southern mantis guys we had 3 taekwondo “champions” call on us and issued a challenge.
One of them had trained in Korea for a year, one of them was a 4th degree black belt yadda yadda yadda. They got mightily upset when our Si Suk asked one of the mid level students to go against them. Terribly insulted. I think the student was a bit put off too - he looked like he was $hitting pineapples.
Anyway - Mr “I’ve been in Korea for a year” went first, dropped into a full box split and bounced up ready to go. Told us not to be ridiculous when we offered them headgear to wear. Our guy - eyes wide and perspiration on his top lip,looked a bit lost. I don’t think he’d ever even contemplated doing the splits before, much less had someone offer them up to him right in his face.
Mr Korea All Star came in with a fast high round kick, caught our guy upside the head and sat him on his butt. It was a beautiful kick. Mr Korea looked back at his cronies, laughed and told them they had nothing to worry about.
Our guy gets back up and shapes up again. Taekwondo guy faints a front kick which he turns into another high roundkick. This time, our guy, already moving forward to intercept the front kick, steps inside nicely as can be, swings a hammerfist (gow chui) down onto the taekwondo guy and obliterates his nose and two front teeth.
Much blood from “I’ve been in Korea” dude.
Much silence from his friends.
The taekwondo guy falls over, clutching his face. His friends stop to recover one tooth (we found the other one later), picked him up and they all left.
Our guy still looks like he’s just laid an egg.
It’s late here - if this thread is still active when I come back I’ll post another about my encounter with a judo guy.
A teacher I know wasn’t welcome in town when he had his first school there. When people would talk down about him he’d invite them to the school, ask what there beef was. If they openly said to him what it was (usually talking about how young he was, or wasn’t good enough yet to open a school) then he’d say well, I know this, and say if I need to prove myself I will, the pads are over there, why don’t you put some on. He’d do this in a friendly matter, usually the two would cross hands in a, “friendly,” way, trading techniques etc. If the person was being shady, he’d do the same thing, only ask them if they’d stop badmouthing him, over time, if they didn’t stop they’d end up sparring, etc.. lets just say that he was better respected after this whole ordeal was done. A lot of these guys were saying he couldn’t fight, he didn’t know his arts, etc. Trying to take away his students and if unsuccesful would try to pick fights in extreme cases… There are some details that aren’t included, but that is the general gist of how things went down. I met one of the guys that this guy fought not too long ago, he did corroborate the story, and helped this guy out after they, “crossed hands,” and said,“I thought that these (lists off like 5 guys) new there stuff and they badmouthed him, so I figured they were right when they said he was stepping on toes,” then added, “After we crossed hands, I realized that he was cool, new more than most those other guys, but he just happend to be younger, I think they were just jeoulous.”
About 10 years ago a guy called Tony Leung was teaching temple mantis in london. He was quite big on pushing him self and had a monthly spot in the UKs biggest maertial arts magazine but he seems to have disapeared now.
Anyway he was big on liniage and decided that if you can not trace your line back 10 generations yada yada yada. He also wrote a list of guys teaching kung fu that didnt meet up to his idea of correct liniage and thia is the stare of his problems.
One of the guys who did kung fu under a person named by Mr Leung took offense at this, went to his school and challanged him thre old fashioned way.
Now its hard to make out what happend next but there was fighting between the 2 principles involved. The out come remained unclear as I have heard the story from both sides (I know the challanger and Tony Leung printed his version of the story in a magazine) and both claim some form of victory.
The out come is really not the point…the poiint is that this stuff still happens.
