I ask this for one reason, because we have no formal way of identifying who should be teaching and who shouldnt be. There are a lot of people out there that claim to be a teacher and claim to have a lot of background but possibly do not, and only have a story to back them up.
I understand that in the asian community (and if you are asian and disagree, please correct me on this) it is common, or was more so in the not so distant past, to challenge so-called sifu in the community. This was often doen by people of similar MA but not always, a common reason to challeneg someone was to see if they knew enough to teach the person challenging. Anyway, What I am wondering is, should the MA community look at this sort of thing as a way of making sure that people who are teaching should be?
Some people are just looking for a fight, and it has nothing to do with the reputation and credability of the organization. They seek fame and glory or have some other dubious agenda. So I’d say that sometimes a situation might arise and a school may have to back up thier claims if it is believed that they are fraudulent.
Kicking thier @ss is the testosterone based response, maybe other channels could be persued, but if theres too much red tape , maybe an underground challenge is best.
I also believe that there are many egotistical fools out there who think that thier style is the best and everyone else is inferior. If they spread such garbage they should be prepared to back up thier claims.
I know some kung fui schools and Sifus have been very arrogant and belligerent in thier response to other schools bad mouthing kungfu as flowery, or exessive motion, and maybe at times such events have come to scraps.
You are right, it isnt about kicking someons butt, just testing thier abilities. You go to a class, watch how it is taught, maybe participate, and then touch hands with the sifu, or spar, or whatever else you have that would be a sufficient way of testing skill.
This is not an oppurtunity to kick the crap out of someone, it should be respectful but you should be able to provide a skillful challenge to the person you challenge. Go with the attitude that you should learn something. Dont challenge anyone in front of thier class, take them to the side, etc…
I am not talking about the MArtial Police here but I know in my area there are a lot of people who are claiming to be sifu who shouldn’t be doing it and this could be hurting thos ethat are learning from them.
It would probably also be best if you studied the same style as the person you are challenging. That way you can be sure that you know what you and they are doing.
I was told that traditionally all the sifus in the area would take their turn at testing the skill of a new sifu. This was the only way a new sifu could earn the respect and acceptance of the incumbent sifus.
My sifu told me that when he first moved to Australia and set up his school, he got heaps of challenges. Basically it was the same deal - the local sifus wanted to test his skills.
As long as it is done with respect and the intent of testing their skills rather than to beat them up, I see challenges as a kind of quality control procedure
Whilst I agree with some of the aspects above, what about considering the fact that someone may be able to communicate a subject really well even if they cannot produce the goods in a spar / fight.
A good example of this would be a boxing coach, who teaches the boxer thier skill and does not step in the ring with them to prove he is the better fighter.
I know of some very skilled martial artists who are unable to break down thier techniques and teach it. I know of others who teach really well, but cannot put it into practice.
another aspect to consider is the aging teacher who has a life time of experience. Are suggesting a young athletic, fit fighter go into a gym and challenge such a person?
I think ‘challenges’ amongst all martial artists are a good thing if done without malice. There are few enough avenues to test one’s skill as it is.
I’m not sure about strolling into some school and throwin’ down over a bunch of contracts - “I have whipped your a$$, now I will take your students MUHAHAAHA!” - but I think that if challenges were an accepted part of the MA community there’d be alot fewer McDojos.
I don’t think challenges should be limited to instructors, either. Students (when and if they’re ready; a whole different topic) can learn alot about their weaknesses by ‘fighting’ someone new. I believe challenges should cross styles when possible so you can see some different sh!t.
I have tried going to a couple of area schools and talk hands with different teachers and students. I talk openly about what I want to do in a respectful manner. I am cheerful and polite. I have never been taken up on it. People will occasionally play a coupla 1-steps, but I’ve even been turned down for chi sao at a wing chun school. :mad:
on the grounds that the aged Sifu with years upon years of experience would have themselves a reputation that preceded them most likely by then. any such sifu would more than likely have
been established already. Although there was a documentary on martial arts on discovery that had a sub story about a senior master who was respected and had knowledge of the dim muk, there was a young sifu going around making challenges and the master repeatedly declined. after a long long long period of declining the master finally reacted with the dim muk…
Also with respect to the Sifu who is an exellent coach like in the boxing analogy, I would think that such a sifu would know his/her limitations and advrtize themselves as such. Even So is it so uncommon for a Sifu to send his student out if he cant be bothered to fight himself, or is this a disrespect?
Two points Im making with the first statement regarding the older sifu.
(1) age doesnt mean that a sifu is too decrepid to fight if so then theres a chance that the sifu would have retired
(2) age Probably means that the sifu would not have to contend with proving himself as he would have done so in his youth with his contemporaries. an older sifu or a sigung being challenged by a younger sifu seems obnoxious. and they would have to be very confident in thier ability to defend thier disrespect, also they would be looked down upon as somewhat of an upstart to make such a challenge.
My Sigung used to take challenges all the time - even up until the age of about 70. I’d even heard that he agreed to do chi sao with a visitor at the age of 83.
As I said before, as long as it is about testing skills and not kicking the sh!t out of someone, then challenges are a good way of ensuring that a sifu is good at what he does.
Depends I guess.
“Challenging” can be alot of things, even putting your “credentials” themselves on the line.
“Challenging” as in going to schools to fight, I don’t agree with.
Well again, I guess it depends. There are legitimate martial artists out there who don’t like fighting unless they really have no choice. Friendly sparring is one thing, but the motivation to “see who wins in a fight” doesn’t really go well with me I suppose.
then again I’m not a teacher.
But if I was, I would be worrying about teaching students realistically, with competitive randori, and friendly atmospheres.
As far as I’m concerned if someone comes to the school to “fight” for no reason, he is responsible for whatever happens to him. Even if it means getting maced in the eyes, stun gunned, shot, whatever.
Someone wanting to fight for no reason is one of my pet peeves.
I really don’t care if I can beat him with my hands or not. I’ll be a “*****” and cheat.
I think challenges are a good thing, too. It’s kind of like an underground method of testing a school, making sure it’s a good one. I’ve only seen one challenge in a martial arts school. I was studying JKD at the time and visiting another local JKD school. Some jock(big football player looking guy) came in and was watching the class, smirking. I was right near them, so I could hear bits of the conversation. The instructor went up to the guy and made some friendly conversation. Then the jock said something about how what the people in the class were doing didn’t look very effective. The instructor just kinda ignored it and just stood there watching the class. Then the jock guy goes “Hey, what would you do if I did this?” several times, throwing out several punches and trying to slap the instructor’s body. The JKD instructor just grabbed the guy’s arm, locked him up, and threw him face first on the ground, and started yelling at him “You want a piece of me? You want a piece of me?” It was crazy, we stopped class to watch it. Then he let the guy up and the guy just looked at him funny and walked out in a hurry. The instructor told us to get back to work. I liked the instructor’s technique, but I didn’t like his attitude, so, that was the first and last time I went to that school.
Well hey like I said. The guy is responsible for what happens to him.
See there? I think the jock was incredibly incredibly rude for doing that. If that is what most people think “challenging” is then I’d say the MA community does NOT need that. Very childish.
As far as the instructor’s attitude, well he ignored him at first, and took him out when the guy wouldn’t let up. Shouting like that probably scared the guy off a bit too.
No one really wants to fight someone crazy..
I don’t really approve of inter-school challanges…it endangers the school the challenge takes place in.
What I do approve of and infact think is absolutely necessary is all students should be able to challenge their instructor by resisting his/her technique within reason (meaning not flying into a sloppy berserker rage).
In the school I train, our instructor generally likes to remain quiet. If you are thinking, man I could just stand there an flex or throw a punch at his face and he’d be in trouble, you may ask him to demonstrate why that is not possible. Sometimes he will walk through the dojo and look at every one, offering them the opportunity to challenge him. It is a general rule that the harder you resist, the more difficult it will be to absorb the technique (I learned that one day when I really tried to bear down on him with both hand on his right wrist, the impact with the mat injured my hand and made the whole room get reeeeeeeally fuzzy for a while).
Challenging one anothers technique should be a gradual process. It does noone any good to resist a beginners technique everytime. But how can you develop real technical skill and strength if your partner is always cooperating?
I have seen guys walk into schools and laugh at the classes and offer challanges. None of these situations turned into fights. If you are very very advanced, it must be tempting to accept. However, that same level of advancement should teach a person why they should not accept.
It seems like most people look at it sensibly. When I suggested this, and I want to reiterate this, I wasn’t looking for every martial arts ‘superstar’ out there to wander around town challeneging everyone they could to test thier abilities, or ego, or what have you. Our community needs some sort of control over who is teahcing and who isn’t.
this is how I picture your ‘average’ challenge: You, as a sifu yourself, or an advanced student, wander into a local kwoon that has just opened up. You wait to get the chance to talk to the sifu, find out about his background, maybe sit in on the class. Afterwards, if there is a way of testing his skill other than sparring, like touch hands, push hands, chi sau, or whatever, then ask to do so with the sifu or his best student. Otherwise, ask to spar, respectfully, with either. After the fact, thank the sifu/student for the oppurtunity to learn from them and leave. Then think about what you experienced and let the rest of the community know what you have found.
If you just want to test your own skill, well, find another martial artist who is interested in the same and set up a play date. This forum may be a good place to find those people.
I wouldn’t recommend:
being disrespectful, there is no need, no matter what the sifus actual level of ability is.
challenge a sifu in front of his class. He may be one of those instructors who can teach better then he can perform. In this case you just want to make sure he knows his stuff, and can atleast do the basics. To show him up in front of his class by beating him because you are younger, faster, better, what have you, is disrespectful and unnecessary. Then it is more a comment on your ability then thiers.
Challenging students. If a sifu doesn’t want to meet your challenge, right away, be persistant, stop by every once in a while and offer again. If he offers you a challenge with one of his students, then take it, but it would be disrespectful to approach his students as they may not be a good reckoning on his own ability.
Looking for a fight, this is supposed ot be a test of someones ability to teach, not his abliity to defend himself. If you dont understand what this means then you shouldnt be challenging anyone.
