I was just reading anothe thread and came across some ideas, that have always intrigued me.
It is funny how we think in the west, about our egos, and about fighting.
For instance, a while back I put up a thread about challenges. There are a lot of people willing to claim that so and so doesnt know what he is talking about, or shouldnt be teaching this or that. These same people seem to be unwilling to back that up, show those people they think are underqualified, that they ARE underqualified?
there is also a lot of crap MA being taught out there by people with little real knowledge, just a few classes for a year or so. They can talk a good game, make it sound like they know what they are doing. I know of two around here. One is a good fighter, but his martial arts needs some serious work, the other, I am not so sure about his fighting ability but his martial arts abliity is unimpressive to say the least. I plan on challenging him when I am up to par on my own ability and am better able to judge his. What happen to the challenge system? It keeps people honest. If you cant do it, you probably shouldnt be teaching it ( a few exceptions like age, and knowledge, but in general you should atleast be adequate at it to teach it effectively.)
All of these organizations? They work sometimes, but not always.
Here is what I think, its fear. Fear of loosing face, of confrontation. too many people are willing to talk a good game, and its easy to criticize when you are behind a keyboard or states or countries away.
In China, and Asia in general, it wasnt uncommon for some challengers to travel great distances to fight, so that they knew the skill was being kept pure. Now a days, when you could fly from one end of this world to another in a few hours!
Why not challenge? they can be freindly, “Hey you teach ______? I do to! Lets put on some pads and spar!” It doesnt have to be this, I am going to kick your azz to show you you dont know what you are talking about.". It can be respectful as well. If they dont like it but accept, then who cares, it is obvious they have enough confidence in thier own ability that they are willing to show up.
I am talking about serious challenges here. For WC, the art I study, I am tired of seeing some of the watered down stuff out there. When I am able to, I will test those around me who wish to teach. whether winning or loosing, I will know whether they shold be teaching or not.
I am serious here people, there is way too much crap in the MMA world and it gives us who are passionate about what we do a bad name.
“Challenge matches” exist all around us they’re called “MMA, Vale Tudo, NHB,” fights etc.
Hell, you don’t even have to enter tournaments. LOTS of schools have fight nights and if you can’t find one it’s easy to form one.
JWT
Yup!
Third Power Kickboxing gym in DC has friday night fights! 12 dollar ring fee, they test your skills on the pads and heavy bag and try to match you with somebody that won’t maul you or vice versa.
Those are different though. Those are people who have enough drive to compete. I am not talking about competeing, am talking about maintaining strength in bloodline. Making sure that al of those fakes out their are weeded out. They dont go to the local fight night because they know they cant fight, not really. for those guys and gals who get out and fight in contest, or fight night, they are not who I am talking about because whether they are good or not, they are willing to test that, openly, and are more then likely improving because of it.
For example, there is this guy who teaches here in mineeapolis. he claims to teach several things, Boxing, JKD, Wing Chun, some other stuff. He has some instructors who are good, and good at what they do, but he likes to sling names around and talk the talk. His skill is unimpressive, he is in it for the money. I am offended that he even claims to teach WC. It bothers me because people who go to him are learning watered down chop suey kung fu. I am not currently able to contend with him, he has studied longer then I and has some advantages on me, right now. when I am capable, I will. I will continue to every 6 months until he either stops saying he is teaching Wing Chun, or chooses to actually learn it thoroughly before claiming to teach it.
You could say that it is to my advantage as all of the people who are learning from him have a disadvantage if they were to fight me, but that is not what I am looking for. I am looking to maintain WC as a sincere, and good fighting art.
Yup,
And wind your ass up in jail.
Those matches that JWT and I were discussing serve the same purpose. If you take some Wing Chun and kick some ass in verifiable, documented tournaments against a variety of ways, then in the future, when you teach, you can point to your victories (and losses, be honest), play the tapes and say “here, what I do works. I can teach it to you.”
Now, there is a difference between being a great fighter and a great teacher…but you’re catching my drift here—a VERIFIABLE fighting record would serve the same purpose. And then guys that jaw alot don’t look so impressive, do they?
I hear you. It really sucks to see someone giving your art a bad name, since, in some way, it gives you bad name by association. It sure pi$$es me off when I see some 10th degree American Kenpo Grandmaster that never got any rank higher than a brown belt doing some absolutely stupid sh!t on stage.
But, ultimately, you shouldn’t be focusing on them. Focus on YOUR ability, focus on making YOUR school and YOUR students as good as possible. You go to the open rings and open rolls. Eventually, reputation will get out and students will come to you. And you’ll make good fighters and good teachers out of them.
JWT
JWT–EXACTLY!
Where is your school? I mean, obviously, in Austin, but where?
MP - That is a good point, building credibility! As for jail, I am not saying you should go out and make someone fight, of they dont want to, well, there is probably a good reason or that. I say any reasonable MA person who has confidence in thier ability would probably take on a friendly match with someone. Cant see why not.
As for teaching and ability, I agree to some extent. as I said above, some people it is easier to teach then to do, but you should still be able to do well, to teach effectively. It is very very rare for someone to be able to teach something without knowing how to do it themselves very well.
JW - it is a much better way to look at it that you suggest, unfortunately I am the kind of guy who has to jump in to a fight when I see someone getting picked on. The same type that takes personal offense when someone slanders his passion. A weakness of mine admittedly but I would like to apply it to strengthen my art.
Then you apply it by making a name for yourself, by fighting the best available…not by fighting this guy with a big mouth and not much skill.
William Cannon and South Congress. But when we moved last year we dropped our Friday Night Fight Night. I still have a pretty much open spar on Saturdays around 1:00pm. But it’s not really open to just anyone who walks in off the street since it’s not my school and I don’t want my instructor liable for any mistakes I make. I want to have trained with or sparred with the person before. As I’m still injured from my wreck, I won’t be sparring at all anytime real soon. But you, or anyone else for that matter, is always welcome to come and try out a class and, IF YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE, spar afterward.
That said, the best “open ring” in Austin is now, and has been for quite some time, Tim Kirby’s kickboxing school in Round Rock not too terribly far from here. Kirby is a middleweight champ, (don’t know what years) and a friggin great fighter. He also hosts a good tournament each year. I haven’t been to his open fight in months, but I’m sure it’s still a good one. They don’t roll (our sparring does) but they have allot more students there to spar than we do and the contact is good.
JWT
Oh oh oh oh oh. And Vandry Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (also North Austin/Round Rock) has a Vale Tudo night that is open to anyone. Machado school with a heavy competition emphasis. Good teacher and nice guy as well.
JWT
JWT - going off of what you said; but isn’t focusing on shutting down the frauds in your system, in a way, showing the respect you have for your system? like, “i love kempo and i’m not gonna let some fraud get away with tainting my martial art’s name and rep”. that’s kind of how i see it.
i’d only challenge a faker if he was teaching the art i study and making it look bad.
Unfortunatly laws and guns hamper those of us who dont wish to compete, but at the same time would be willing to beat some guys ass who claims to have skill.
I like the topic of this thread, Warrior spirit is out there, it hasent been lost, but it has been conditioned and caged. This is why there was Hong Kong roof fighters.
I think it is perfectly okay, when you meet someone, and they claim to do this and that - for you to test them (and yourself) by a friendly kung fu challenge.
Again, it unfortunate that life isent like the movies, isent it kool in Drunken Master I when Jackie and the old guy that stole the other yellow package - when they stop fighting they talk to each other and say “Hey you have good Kung Fu.”
How cool is that? And if one of them sucked, they would just get thier ass kicked and go on thier way.
A “friendly challenge” where both of you agreed I would totally go with. Hell, that’s what a fight night/open ring/vale tudo night really is.
But, if he’s a faker he’s not likely to go for that and now you’re back to picking a fight and just looking like an a$$. And you can’t help yourself, your instructor, your students, or your system by being know as that jacka$$ that goes around to “peacefull” instructors picking fights.
JWT
a friendly sparring match isn’t a “challenge” A challenge match is “let’s see who wins” 
Ryu
Don’t worry about the fakes, just keep training.
I agree with you though in spirit. I can talk a good game of $hit myself, in that I will call someone out if I think they are full of it. But, the one thing that I have to make clear is that I know I’m nowhere near where I should or could be. That I can be taken out by a number of hard training men, some of them here I’m sure – this is an international board right? I would at least hope so.
The difference, and what I thought this thread was about, is The Warrior Spirit. So What! You might get me. I might get you. Let’s find out and grow together. That’s the attittude I have know with my training. I just want to keep seeing and learning. Its the only way.
As for “the fakes”, don’t sweat them. I’m more concerned with the real guys with low technology. They at least are training hard and fight to win, with pride and style on the line.
Good attitude though. I agree. Just focus on your training.
Exactly JWT!
So your best bet is to work until you succeed in competition… and then encourage (but not necessarily require) that your students compete in the same sorts of venues. Even if all your students don’t compete, some will. And some is enough. If you can build a consistent reputation as a “fighting school,” you’ll be fine.
If enough people did this, eventually “non-competing” schools would be frowned at, instead of encouraging mystical pseudo-MA crap. There will always be people willing to believe… but the fewer, the better.
no doubt jwt. great point.
JWT, I have been wondering about you!?
I didn’t know you were in an accident! I’ve checked into Kenpoworld.com but found no activity… It’s good to know your alive and kickin. Bring me up to date when you get a chance.
Peace,
Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Karate
St. Paul, MN:D