red5angel,
does he claim to teach wing chun? or does he claim that wing chun contributed to JKD?
big distinction.
stuart b.
Red5angel
Personnally, I think you might want to pick your challenge matches more carefully. There are a lot of people in the world that make unsubsantiated claims that reflect poorly upon a martial art, a religion, a philosophy, a dish soap, etc. Most of the time their own action show true. The world just isn’t fair.
Let’s say you did fight a challenge match, at your full potential, and you still lost. Would you think this teacher could claim to teach WC? Well, if your assessment of his WC is right, then of course not. But you lost.
I know your passionate about MA, which is wonderful. I do not oppose challenge matches either, but be wise. Martial arts is just as much about honor in retraint as it is about honor in combat.
I am sure you discover the right thing to do, whether its in a challenge match or not.
besides, what if he beats you using boxing or JKD? doesn’t leave you in a really strong position to say, “well, sure, but you still shouldn’t claim to teach wing chun!”
better to educate people so they know what they’re getting into.
stuart b.
Here is a good website for those interested in warrior spirit, go check out the color code article in the archives, but stop after the color red IMHO, as those were Coopers orignial colors for a alert combative mindset, the goal being to always be in code yellow, check it out, some real good sstuff for the non-sheeple.
Ok, a good challenge, does not involve ego. What I mean by this is that if I were to challenge you to prove you knew WC, then I would expect you to use WC. I may not be questioning your ability as a fighter. For instance, you can often twell the level of a wC practitioner just by doing Chi sao (although not always as this can sometimes be overstressed.). If you just wanted to find out if they were a good fighter, well, everythig goes I guess, but thats a different subject.
A freindly challenge match is just that, you arent trying to kill each other, you are testing each others skill. you may get some cuts and bruises, it happens even wearing pads, but the point is the test, not whether you can beat them or not. Remember, some people teach better then they do, an dyou maybe able to do much better then they. Can it be done? If I were going to be in your town, and I knew you were a martial artist, would you accept an oppurtunity to spar with me? Could we shake hands, laugh and tell each other we did good? Would feelings be hurt if I lost, no of course not.
If I lost would that prove I am not good? If you lost would that prove that you are not good? Of course not, but if I have been reasonable about my skill, I know whether I am ready to fight someone. Like I know now that I am not ready to fight the guy locally here who I consider a charlatan. (By the way Ap, he claims to teach both, but I know for WC, he has only taken a few classes, I know this because I am learning under the guy he learned from!)
If I am beaten, I have something to learn from this person right? thats what I am saying, when ego is left at the door, then it can be a learning experience. I definitely dont think you should force someone to fight if they dont want to. I am not talking about being Kung Fu bullies, but like I said, you choose not to fight at all, and you are revealing something about yourself…
well frauds are frauds, certainly. and i’m all for exposing that. but you said it yourself. some people teach better than they do. so if you beat them, what then? will you only challenge people who make false claims? or anyone who isn’t your match?
i don’t know. again, i respect your passion for your art. but this doesn’t seem very realistic to me.
stuart b.
p.s. yes, we could meet and spar without any problems. but i’m not representing a style. just me.
What Ap said–which is why you should build YOUR reputation instead of worrying about the other guy’s.
Well, like all things Ap, nothing is perfect, I hope ot have the foresight to say hey, this guy knows his stuff, he just isnt as good as me, and a good martial artist should be able to do this.
I am not promoting utter chaos here. I am just saying it is getting out of hand. In america especially we have a really bad habit of just saying screw it, what do I care. He is the looser not me. But I care, I care if someone is supposed to be learning self defense and is learning glorified Tae Bo instead. I care if the guy standing next to me claims he learned WC, but when he shows me what he knows most of it is unrecognizable and unfeasible.
america is complacent and we have been lying on our backs long enough.
I have pasison for my art, I am not a psycho by any means. I will always have respect and openmindedness for anyone who stands in front of me, but I am really tired of putting up with crap. We put up with it because we are lazy and we do not care.
i guess i just don’t understand how this is going to achieve what you want to achieve. do you think you’ll enlighten the american public this way? do you think these instructors will pack up shop and stop their charlatan ways? or seek out real wing chun?
what’s your thinking beyond this gut reaction that you love wing chun? i think you really need to know that before you start travelling around to schools.
stuart b.
Well, I dont plan on doing any tours anytime soon 
What am I trying to accomplish? Well, basically respect. The american public will do whatever the american public will do. But lets say you are in a school studying. You are new the MAs and in walks this guy. He discusses something with your instructor, and your instructor agrees to say chi sao with him. The guy wipes your instructor all over the floor and then respectfully tells your instructor that he should not be teaching because he has not learned what he needs to teach. The guy is respectful, and doesnt seem to be pulling some sort of macho bull. what do you think? If it were me, at the very least I would look at the backgrounds of each, very closely. Maybe make a few phone calls or emails to do some background checking.
To be honest, it is not a gut reaction for me, I have been thinking about it for a long time. In a perfect world we could have a federation or club that makes sure that instructors know what they are talking about, but it is not perfect. What do we have to loose from it being challenged? IMHO, I learn one of two things, I have the skill I thought I did, or I do not and need to go back to studying.n If the person who ‘test’ me is respectful and honest about it, it may sting a little but I am only fooling myself if I am not acknowledging my lack of ability.
My hope is any of the things listed. Some will not stop, and for those, sometimes they need to be challenged more then once. Some will come over to the light side and work for what they want. some will stop what they are doing. The point is that the community itself is taking control of its own destiny.
well, if i’m wrong, i’m wrong. but i don’t see this working. people intrinsically want to believe that they’ve made smart choices. you best their instructor, and belief preservation suggests that they’ll come up with reasons why that doesn’t mean anything.
educate them and they’ll make their own minds up. they’ll reevaluate their teachers on their own recognizance. that seems like a better way to go, to me.
stuart b.
You are correct, and my main point of impact is the person who is teaching. The students will write off anything they choose, as you say. But the instructor, if he is doing something worng, he will know it.
morally or technically wrong?
we all make mistakes in technique. as for moral error, you’re going to make those judgments?
If he is doing something worng morally, he will know it, I will not judge it. If he is doing something technically wrong, because of lack of training and misinformation, then challenging him would be doing someone a favor. Him if he realizes that he has been doing something wrong, or doesnt know enough to be teaching. he may choose to go study harder and stop calling himself a teacher. Someone else may benefit if it comes to light that he was beat in a challange and was found to be a fraud.
Basically Ap, what I am talking about is a fraud. The sort of person who is in it for the money or the prestige and hasn’t taken the time to really learn it. We have several here abouts in the karate and WC communities. Alot of people who sort of trained with so and so, later you find out they were not certified to teach, and arent qualified to teach. that is very different from the guy who just doesnt know any better. he probably learned from one of the guys I am talking about!
Red:
Lets start a federation or club that does research on WC instructors and provides the info. In the case of fraud, then us club members pile into a van, show up at his place, and ‘test’ him.
Once we get big enough we can start charging people for the info, for membership on our website, sell t-shirts and pins, etc. If we could somehow figure out a way to charge our ‘customers’ for thier ‘tests’ that would be great too.
Im down.
LMAO! Yenhoi!!! Really, this whole chop suey WC that has been popping up lately is ****ing me off, can you tell?
I was partly serious.
You should make a list of the people who you are concerned are fakes or whatever, and at the very least post it here. Not on the WC forum tho, that will get you massivly flamed and eventually banned by one of the nazi mods. [Shout out WH!]
You could start a crusade against sorry WC teachers, maybe other people will join you.
You should also just generally be keeping a list of people who do or have ed you off so that when your WC skills are up-to-date you can go un- off yourself.
[the above use of the word crusade was in no way intended to offend anyone of the Muslim faith]
red5
ttt
By the way, what does ttt mean?
Well, to a certain extant I am. Like this guy locally that should in no way be claiming to teach wing chun. When I am at a skill level where I can challenge him, I will. Maybe a few others locally here that probably shouldnt be teaching.
As for people that ****ed me off, well, I would have to quit my full time job!!! 
“to” “the” “top”
I believe, or
“troll” “troll” “troll”
_
Question: If your skills are not ready to challenge these “frauds” - how can you judge now that they are “frauds”?
Also, how can you seriously expect someone to fight you using “only wing chun” as if when fighting a real fighter would limit himself to certain techniques.
Wing Chun is about fighting, as are most Kung Fu. Just because it has principles that ‘dictate’ how you should move, its techniques are based on simplicity, centerline, and elbows. You fight, not WC. When you fight, you use your arms and legs, YOUR tools, you dont use WV on your opponent.
I have come full circle, boredom, sillyness, seriousness. I am not attacking you, just finally adding 2 bucks rather then 2 cents.