Young Sifus

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

In another thread I was posting how its easy to stay put if you reached a good level of an art, or rather a school.

With that said I have a few friends who are opening legit schools (not teaching a friend in a yard). Now, to me, and I tell them this, to each there own. The best of luck. Wish you well.

But, inside, I feel they are really not ready to take on that respnsibility, title. First, no one is giving them that title, for they broke off from their training.

Second, they are young, they still need to fight those fights, experience more.

Third, are they ready to defend their schools from a challenge.

And, lastly but most important in my eyes, Are they so good that they should stop learning? For some its hard to start from scratch, too humbling to be a “white belt” again.

I know the answer to each of these. And I think they do to … but still they want that title.

Any thoughts?

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Maybe this is a good “learning experience”. The thing about “young sifus” is that they have to remember that you should always be learning. That being said, it will also take them a while to develop their own teaching style. This is important, however, some may say that you should teach the same way you were taught, but hearing that they broke off, maybe thats what they needed a change in.
eople need to be careful with opening up a school, as it is a business first in many respects at this point in time. Hopefully these people have the means to not cut corners. Well luck to all. Well thats my thoughts as of now.

3

My instructor is 62 I believe. My senior brothers range from their 30s to their 50’s.

The best way to defend against a challange at your school is ask the guy to leave or call the cops. I do not belive these kinds of challanges have any value, and the endanger the life of the school. It is far to easy to run a scam.

Starting your own school has many risks. Perhaps the greatest risk is that you will stall your own advancement.

There are instructors for every level of student. Your friends sound like they will fall into the intermediate to high-intermediate catagory. They can expect amny of thier students to surpass them and leave them behind.

4

The head guy in my kwoon is late 40s. The next instructor down is late 30’s. The apprentice instructor is mid-30’s. A couple of senior students in their mid 20’s assist with instructing beginners. That’s it.

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I don’t think anyone should feel that they don’t need to learn anymore, regardless of their status.

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Right on, Tigerstyle

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Teaching is learning! Duh!

My instructor is young maybe one or two years older than me. He started teaching us before he even got his black belt, now I and another student just tested for our black belt and he tested for his 2nd degree. I feel that I am close to his level, could maybe even beat him in point sparring, but I also see that I need to practice allot more to truly be close. I got to watch him test and watched him at the tournament, and he is allot better than his peers. I was considering quitting before I saw him test, now not so much. He is still learning from his teacher though.

My san shou teacher is ten years older that me with much more experience than my other teacher, how ever he has just started teaching, and I feel that my other teacher is a better instructor.

How can you develop you own teaching style with out teaching? Teaching at your instructors school is a hell of allot different than teaching at your own. And when you teach you a improving your skills (sometimes) allot more than by being taught. I doubt their growth will stop, still doesn’t mean that they should be teaching though. :smiley:

ok i’m done talking just for the sake of talking.

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If a teacher has been studying ten years, and started when he was 16, I see no problem with issue with that. If you enrolled an eight year old kid in tai chi, and he stuck with it for 20 years, he’d be 28 and probably have a pretty high level of skill for that age. Would you train with him if he had the qualities of a good teacher or discount him for his age?

It’s really up to the individual.

  • Nexus
9

SanHe, your teacher is still learning, no problmes there in my eyes. Its no diffrent then a senior teaching a junior. He’s showing what he knows while adding to it.

Jasbourne, TigerStyle, right on!:slight_smile:

Combined, I have roughly 17 years of training, but its nowhere near enough. At one time I thought I was pretty good (about 18 months ago), now I don’t think I’m good at all, though I’m better then I was then. There’s always a higher level, even within the framework of what you know.

However, merely collecting all of a styles forms does not qualify one to teach – I BELIEVE. These people were seniors at other schools, teaching kids. Meanwhile there peers were out fighting and testing. They did not like the scene and took their young students and opened up their own school and became “sifus”.

Shaolinboxer, I disagree with you 100%. I would like to be a teacher one day, if my master finds me suitable to do so one day.

If that day comes and someone walks into my school for a challenge, I will make it my life’s duty to have them feel they made the biggest mistake of their lives about 3 minutes afterwards.

If you can’t defend your school, what do you have? How does it look running to the phone in front of your students when someone comes in and basically says, I know I’m better then you let’s go.

On the street, walk away every time: Stupid drunks and loud mouths don’t know any better. But a martial artists challenging me, well, that’s exactly what I’m training for.

It happens more then one would think.

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EF: “If that day comes and someone walks into my school for a challenge…”

Sadly, in today’s world you are begging to get slapped with a lawsuit should the guy get hurt, or even “claim” he got hurt. Physical pre-meditated violence (in front of witnesses!) means you’ll either get your a55 handed to you in court, or bankrupt your school with the legal fees to defend. Is it worth putting the welfare of your students and school on the line? Will your students still respect you when they no longer have a sifu to train with or school to attend?

Challenges and duels have been obsolete as a means of resolution since the 1800’s. Police and lawyers

If it really must come to violence, use some brains…handle it in a dark alley with no witnesses…

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EF - I think you’ve seen too many kung fu movies.

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I have absolutely no interest in learning from someone who dials 911 the second someone walks into their school looking for a challange. What does that say about someone who is teaching a MARTIAL(yes martial) art?

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Challenges are certainly not obsolete – at least not around here.

As for legal issue. I know you are right, but I for one, as a martial artists, if challenged, I’m not thinking about that, but thinking I better not lose after all this training, practice, blood, sweat and even tears as a young boy.

I would rather deal with a person turning into a little bit(h afterwards, then refuse a challenge. Believe it or not, I’m not even a sifu, no where close, but I’ve had old training partners request a fight. I always say, sure, let’s get together and chi sau or soemthing – I keep it vague, leave it up to them (chi sau, fight, gear, no gear).

The few occassions have always been medium grade fighting, with head gear. Except for one which was bare handed, but no head strikes which I found wierd. No problems. That last one actually I lost the last go around, I was turned. I cleand him out the first three times though.

Be both walked away feeling good, but yet with things on our mind to work on. We remain friends. I had questions for my knew seniors and the problem was corrected. I’ll never make that mistake again.

My old teacher (where this guy came from) broke a collar bone in such a match and had no legal ramifications. I can respect that from the other guy.

As for my master now. He’s 60, and I believe he has had 3 or 4 in the 13 months I’ve been with him. One of the reasons I want to get good is that I would like to stand in his place. He shouldn’t have to accept these matches. I would readily stand in now, but against a good player (and they better be good before even considering walking up those stairs) I know I am not a real representative of E-chuan. I have the right frame of mind, just not the technique yet. I still need time.

I think in the end my point is this: Not everyone is practicing for their belt test with bagels and milk and smiling faces all around. There are serious players out there and they might knock on your door. Will you be ready … or will you bit(h out.

I think your business, if you’re looking at it that way, would be worse off backing out of such a thing. I view it as each generation should stand on the shoulders of the one before it. I do not want to be that weak link. My forefathers have represented, and represented well. If it will live on it has to live on in its entirety. Upgrade, but never downgrade.

I think this post sums up exactly how I feel as a martial artist.

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Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

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Originally posted by shaolinboxer
Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

Nobody is arguing that. If you choose to live the purist lifestyle of a martial artist, that is entirely your choice but that is all that it is, “your choice.”

Beyond legal issues, there is no moral rights or wrongs of accepting challenge matches. It goes from one individual to the next.

I’ve seen more often than not that challenges are usually issued by people who do not have anything near a high-level of skill.

The teachers I’ve studied tai chi with would openly accept challenges, but would do so in an organized fashion. If someone challenged them, they would set up a meeting time and place, where the teachers senior students would be allowed to observe without interference. If the challenger didn’t agree to those terms then they are welcome to leave and challenge someone else elsewhere.

You, as the person being challenged though, have some very distinct advantages in respect to the person issuing the challenge. One of those advantages is that the challenger is bringing the energy to you. Another is that the person is off-balance mentally otherwise they wouldn’t be walking around trying to challenge people in the first place.

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Fascinating. I didn’t realize I had become such a “purist”.

So be it.

17

Well Said.

As for: Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

Yea. $hitting without squating would be nice too. But this is the real world and MARTIAL arts that we are talking about.

I play chess. Love it. When soemone says, “hey how about a game.” Their intention is to beat me, not lose. As a lover of the game, I think I will win. ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT, play the game.

Talking theory as here and such is good for one thing – passing the time or filling the ego which I am guilty of both, having spent so much time here already. But my priorities are straight and I mean no one any harm. My greatest foe is myself. I’m never satisfied, and I’m more concerned with failing my expectations then taking a blow or being mated. I don’t care about the other guy, may as well not even be there.

18

i agree with both of you…Ev and shaolinboxer. that is such a tough decision to make. dial 911, and lose face in the eyes of your students and possibly lose a few of them too. make dude hurt and risk losing your school entirely and possibly pay some heavy legal monies.
i think i’d opt for ev’s route. i’d take the challenge, but i’d do it in a really smart way.

  1. make sure witnesses are around
  2. make it verbally known that “i don’t want to hurt you, so why don’t you just get out of my fu(kin school”
  3. use an open hand on him which works to my advantage in 2 ways:
    -i train in ba gua :slight_smile:
    -in court, i can always say, i didn’t want to use my fist cuz i didn’t want to really hurt him. i used my palm to slap and get him to come to his senses.
  4. make sure he attacks first.
  5. strike him once for every attack he comes at me with, so it again looks like a 'defending self" situation.
  6. everytime i hit him, repeat, “i don’t want to hurt you, so you better leave”
    by making him attack first, and by only going one for one with him, i always leave him with the option of attacking again and risk getting hurt, or saying that’s enough and going off to lick his wounds. i think this will work well legally, should hius bit(h ass ever decide to take me to court. if he grabs, then i will attack as much as i need to break free of his grab. when he let’s go, then i stop. again, all self defense on my part.
    I think, if done like this, students who may be watching, see that i didn’t back down, but i didn’t demolish the guy for wanting to test, which shows the proper humbleness any man with skill should exude. legally, i didn’t attack first, didn’t want to hurt him, and repeated that i wanted him to leave after everytime i hit him.

but on that chess issue, i don’t look to winning, i look to a match that will challenge my strategy, my patience and my overall chess skills. winning or losing is not something i put much desire in. my pops/chess teacher always said one gains nothing in winning. i don’t see it similar to martial arts in that respect.

19

sigh

In chess, no one is at risk of injury, EF.

Man, you sound just like me a few years ago…

20

“your teacher is still learning, no problmes there in my eyes. Its no diffrent then a senior teaching a junior. He’s showing what he knows while adding to it.”

This kind of how I am. My sifu wanted me to take over his classes so he could “retire” from martial arts. I teach the style he taught me which I am grateful to have learned but I am not satisfied with my current skill level and probally never will be. I am pretty young,20 years old. I don’t consider myself a “master” of any kind more like a big brother in the martial arts to my students. I see allot of peoples faces when they see me and say “YOUR the instructor?” because of my age, but usually by he end of class they respect me as an instructor. Allot of people test me when they first come in though they tend to be disrespectful but I usually put them in their place. My sifu used to test me allot he used to woop my @$$ every day in class and after awhile started to bring in black belts from other styles to test me. Once he was satisfied he retired and gave me the class. At first I’ll adimit I didn’t want the responsibility and just wanted to train myself. Yet I was teaching because he wanted me to. It took me awhile but I figured out that I was learning more about my style teaching people because I had to break down the details in different ways to relate to them and students somtimes ask questions you would never even have thought about. As a whole it’s a good experience from me. I will continue to teach but am still trying to gain more skill. The important thing is not to let a small acomplishment like teaching someone to go to your head. I don’t have my own school I teach out of the Park and recreation in my area.

Challenges- Strangly enough I agree with EF here(it only happens once in a great while;)) As a teacher you should accept challenges to a point. Walking into a class and throwing down a challenge in front of everyone is the extremely rude way to do it and they deserve to get the crap beat out of them. The challenger in private ask to test the sifu’s skills. In any case challenges of any kind don’t usually happen out side of Chinese neighborhoods, or really rough neighborhoods.