The whole pressure point fighting controversy in the main forum is driving me nuts.
The reason why it’s driving me nuts is this:
Other than Erle Montaigue, has anyone else ever studied Taiji as a pressure point fighting technique?
I’ve known people or communicated with people who’ve studied under:
Kuo Lien Ying–guan ping Yang
Mah Liu Liang–Wu Jien Chuan
Hao Sao Liu–Hao/Wu
Wang Xian–Chen
Chi Xi Shin–Yin fu bagua
Liang Qiang Ya–Fu bagua
Cheng Man Ching–Yang/Mi Chuan yang
and none of them has ever mentioned either bagua or taiji as a dian xue art. As a point of fact, it has been my experience that external stylists tend to study dian xue, while internal stylists focus on being able to kill someone just by punching them.
Now, I don’t really care about erle montaigue or his credibility, or his students. I’ve enjoyed sam’s posts, but it’s always driven me nuts. Can anyone other than these gentlemen corroborate this? I’m simply curious. And I’m also aware this seems like an inflammatory post, but I can deal with it if you can.
I study at YMAA, and Dr. Yang does teach that there is a Dian Mai and Dian Xue aspect to Taiji at it’s highest levels. I think in his book Taiji Chin Na he gives some basic examples of it–most of them coming after you’ve already got control of them in a lock. From my limited experience, though, I don’t think it would be practical without a VERY high level of skill in the more common aspects of the art. I know even with chin na training, there can be a big difference between the stiffness, strenght, and flexibility and sensitivity of the limbs and joints of various people, and I have been told that a certain small percentage of chin na techniqes will be ineffective against various individuals–and I find that it’s difficult enough to be able to apply chin na against someone resisting. I would think that would be more so with Dian Mai.
I’m fairly sure that in the full YMAA Taiji curriculum, which I believe would take over 10 years to complete—there’s no listing of Dian Mai techniques in the training or testing. So, I guess to answer your question, yes, I think those techniques are present in the art at the highest levels, but no, I have not been taught Taiji AS a pressure point fighting art. Again, no offense to anyone who’s been taught otherwise, that’s just where I’m coming from.
Count: Thanks for the thread, but the majority of posters there are students of Mr. Montaigue. I believe that the only non student of Mr. Montaigue that posted was Kevin Wikse.
Ky-Fi: Just out of curiousity, do you think it’s possible the Dian Xue aspects of the YMAA curriculum might come from one of Yang’s other arts, such as White Crane?
DM, I know that Dr. Yang has specifically said (in the book, too, I think) that he’s adapted some of the softer and more circular chin na techniques from his White Crane into the Taiji he teaches, so you may very well be correct–I’m not positive.
I’ve been to a few Montague seminars here in NJ. In fact his main rep here in the US used to study with us. He shows the points that he is working on with each posture and concentrates on getting them right. My teacher does not dwell on the points, but when we go over postures, the strikes and grabs are getting the same points. She emphasizes this by either digging in with the finger tips or giving a little shot to make you take note of the of the sensitivity. Never brought up specifically as “point strikes”, it is just part of the application and this is the way you do it.
My art (Emperor’s Long-Fist) is a compilation of Tai Chi, Ba Qua, and Hsing-I. We use dimak points with a technique called ‘secret sword’ and also with the Tai Chi sword. Although we are not taught many points, still it is taught and it is part of the original art from china. I hope this helps to clear the air a bit.
ELFdisciple
Lineage holder and direct disciple to the 37th Patriarch of Emperor’s Long-Fist
Practitioner of:
Internal Iron Palm
Genki Ryu Do Karate
White Crane and Spirit Dragon SCA combat
I started learning about internal kung fu by reading RW smiths books. In Masters and Methods he tells a story about…I believe Hung I Shiang… One day just prior to his leaving Taiwan Smith went to see the man and he told him about “dotting” or point hitting. He drew dots on smiths body where the most effective points were and told him what time of day, etc, when those points were active. He tried to get Smith to wash them off before he left, but Smith found a way around it and recorded the points when he got home.
So yes, Internal stylists do this. I think Internal stylists are uniquely equiped for the practice due to the softness and sensitivity in our applications. I have studied Shiatsu and Tui Na, and now several years of Ba Gua, and here is my take on point striking:
Take a dot…smaller than George Bush’s Chad… and glue it to an acupuncture point on a friend. First…which point? how do you know which will work? Do you really know what effect you want to achieve? Now…free-spar. You must bait him into exposing his chad, and you must strike it, accurately, at full speed. But…how do you hit it? you must probe it, activate it, manipulate it…all in active combat. This is on top of a deep philosophical knowledge about acupuncture and meridian manipulation. If you can do this, then you may be qualified to really talk about Dian Xue.
Hung I Shiang was a master healer and practiced bonesetting and herbology. He had spent a life time learning his craft. I don’t think there are too many guys with websites up that can claim that level of skill or training… I sure know I can’t. I think this is one of those red herrings we all like to gripe about (like Is Chi Real?) rather than train.
well, imho, point-striking is part of chin na, and an inherent part of CMAs --as much, I’d add, as strangling and breaking bones. I think, though, that what’s really driving people nuts is the idea of “death touch.” Even more maddening is the notion that this point changes depending on season, time of day, what the person has eaten that day, as well as the problem of doing this while fighting. There’s the additional problem of training: i.e., how do you practice and know that it works? Anyway, fwiw, I have heard of “point striking” as a particular skill in tjq and bagua. CMC is reported to have said that it would be his response to the attack of a grappler. This is the “last resort” strategy. However, afaik, CMC did not address the specifics of training or which particular time of day to attack which particular organ, etc. OTOH, there’s the view promoted by those from a “military” background, such as Gen. Li Jinglin, etc., who approached the “point” of the hand as if it was a “sword.” Sun Lutang, also a military person, wrote a treatise on “point-striking” that he mentions in his book on bagua. Then, I’ve heard, there is the tradition of bodyguards --who carried concealed weapons, often darts. Besides throwing the darts, a la kung fu movies, they could simply be held --like the famous bagua weapon. Anyway, those are the contexts in which I’ve heard of “dian jue.”
A friend of mine is an indoor disciple of a line that claims descent from Yang Shao Hou (and, no, I’m not talking about Erle Montaigue’s people, in case you were wondering.) From experience of meeting him (in the flesh) and talking with him, I would say that dian xue is a part of taiji (it is one of the higher level combat skills, along with things like tearing tendons and stopping blood flow), but taijiquan is not a ‘pressure point fighting art’.
Haven’t had much experience with bagua or any of the other internal arts. None of the teachers that I studied TC with mentioned anything about pressure point type movements. The locking breaking and other applications of the from are pretty straightforward and can be found if looked for.
Although one teacher in HI. could cause your arm to numb out at anypoint he touched. His fingers felt like spikes so it didn’t really matter where he hit you with them.
What they did stress was relaxing and the use of the mind to control the body movements.
Just using the mind intent alone they could/can do some amazing things. Since TC concerns itself so much with the touch maybe they felt that these type of techniques where ineffective against some one who was relaxed and in control of their mind. It would seem that the pressure point is still a very physical idea or technique, compared to the many ideas presented by internal styles pertaining to the use of the mind coupled with the body movement. You don’t have to touch to lead the mind, and the touch that you do use is very light. Not saying that one is better just a different approach.
Like trying to apply some type of joint lock to a high level TC person.
I know of a few pressure points that my teacher has taught me but no it is not pressure point. theres not very many moves were they use pressure points
I always thought that Taiji was about being able to strike any point on the body with any part of your body and inflict damage. Seems like pressure point striking makes more sense for the external arts eg crane style. In my “external” style, CLF, pressure point striking is considered high level. It is emphasized in the form Hok Ying Kuen (crane form). This is an advanced form. The earlier forms focus on easier and more lethal/painful targets, groin, throat, neck, eyes, joints etc. This progression makes sense for our style. It developed as an emergency combat style for civil war in China. You would initially want to train your troops to take the quickest, deadliest route to take out the opponent. You would not want them dinking around with pressure points. However, because CLF is a buddhist influenced art, at the higher levels practitioners would learn how to subdue an opponent without permanent injury. This, however, would not have been practical at lower levels because of the circumstances of its development. BTW, I think Dim Mak is BS and it is not something that I would waste my time training for.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
If you follow chinese culture you will realize that the time of day, season and postion of the earth all play a very important role in when to hit and why! if this is your understanding that is has no signifigence then you are mistaken.
“If you follow chinese culture you will realize that the time of day, season and postion of the earth all play a very important role in when to hit and why! if this is your understanding that is has no signifigence then you are mistaken.”
I’m absolutely sure it has some effect. I wasn’t dissing Chinese culture, or the idea. I’m also sure that the seven stars have some effect, but I gave up astrology because it was tooo complicated. To know that one must strike “point a1” at a certain time of day in the winter in order to affect/disable an organ in another part of the body is pretty tough. It just seems that it would take a lifetime of study to learn, and another lifetime of practice to accomplish. I’m not saying it’s impossible.
Add me to the list. I can’t answer to XingYi Quan, but my TCM mentor and first neijia instructor Li Xian was also the one who introduced me to Dim-Mak within Taiji, and later within Bagua. Perhaps you may not be giving enough weight to the cultural stigma against teaching gwai lo the most treasured aspects of Chinese culture. Though I have seen various attempts at incorporating Dim-Mak knowledge within certain external styles, it’s always been uniformly unimpressive and rudimentary at best. Realizing I have high standards as a TCM guy, still I find no comparison to the comprehensive sophistication of Dim-Mak as taught within the neijia.
In Robert Smiths “Masters and Methods” Cheng Man-ching is quoted as having learnt Dim Mak but professed to never of taught it because he only half learnt the art i.e. the disruptive methodology and not the curative side. So he did learn it but just didn’t teach it.
my apologies, I thought you were stating that it has no signifigance in dim mak, Yes I will have to agree it is hard and does take a lifetime to learn… so does tai chi, so many people take such a short time to judge things we have little understanding about and then make an assuption. I was recently in a discussion with a tai chi instructor who thought chi did not exsist unless you practiced every day… I explained to him that with out chi this conversation could not take place, he looked at me puzzeled and said why? I had to laugh to myself as I asked him how long have he has been teaching tai chi…
