How many of my fellow Baguazhang practitioners study the Dim-Mak applications of their art as part of their training? Just curious.
Chris
If you want to discuss Dim-Mak in a literal sense, Death Touch, then I would be hesitant to say that there is such an art. But if you want to discuss theory, than in my studies we do practice specific point striking at specific times of day. My teacher will sometimes show a strike, to the top of the head for example, and explain this one is good, but for 12:00 noon when the blood is in the crown. But what is 12:00 noon for you is not 12:00 noon for me, since I wake up to work at 4 in the morning. In order for dim mak to work in theory, one would have to have complete and intimate knowledge of the victims age, weight, eating, sleeping, physical and mental activities, medical history, etc, etc, etc. (Kinda hard to figure all this out in the time it takes for a punch!) We will also discuss the results of say a strike along a nerve path or to the chest and how to revive someone who’s heart has stopped as a result, by specific striking to the back shoulders but it is mainly theory and I will hopefully never have to see it in practice. We don’t really study a specific art called dim-mak, but we do at times concentrate on specific point striking and the results. Maybe a dangerous topic for and internet open forum but if you want to discuss it further, please tell us exactly what it is and how you practice it, and bring up some specifics.
specifics would be nice. i study the dim mak of my baquazhang
The difference immediately between my study and the poster above is that my usage does not require times of day or location on a particular latitude.
It is based entirely on principles of TCM and acupuncture. It can all be scientifically proven and performed at any time of day no matter where you are.
My study has stressed the importance of activating the energy drainage points at the same time as a strike to ensure that the actual dim mak strike(s) will work. Varying degrees of soft power are also delved into.
Realize that if you are not an advanced practitioner or under supervision of a qualified dim mak practitioner, then this is not a study you want to get into, as you could end up killing yourself or a training partner. A light strike to the wrong area could render the body dead many days AFTER the strike occurs. Make sure you have an environment where you can learn this aspect safely.
I hope this thread blows up and the trolls go far away as the potential for a great thread is at hand…
centerline vortex
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> It is based entirely on principles of TCM and acupuncture. It can all be scientifically proven and performed at any time of day no matter where you are [/quote]
I am far from being an expert on TCM of which acupuncture is one of the methods of treatments. However, I know a large part of treatment and diagnosis is based on knowing the patients age, weight, eating, sleeping, physical and mental activities, medical history, etc, etc, etc. Once while being treated for a broken rib by a Chinese Doctor, after examination told me the time of day the injury occurred without asking. I was amazed. He explained because a specific weakness in a specific meridian the time of day was predictable. And in turn dictated the course of treatments. As I say, I am no expert, but the implication is obvious. The time of day even plays a factor in TCM which is of course a much different application of chi than TCMA.
Stories about Dim Mak strikes that “render the body dead many days AFTER the strike occurs” Are pure myth and one of the things that give CMA a bad name. Not only that but they are exactly the kind of food that trolls feed on. Have you ever seen such a thing occur? If you can show me facts, I am certainly open to the possibilities. I have been wrong in the past.
›
Actually, a very large number of Dim-mak strikes do not require such knowledge.
And there are documented cases of some Dim-mak strikes causing death some days later.
For instance, there is a point just above the ear on the side of the head which will when struck hard result in a blood vessel being broken inside the head. A few days later, the patient dies for no apparent reason. But the real reason was blood on the brain or internal bleeding. All the ones that cause death some time later, that I am familiar with, cause physiological damage that causes a slow death. I have read of others which cause things like “damage to the spirit” and such, which damage takes place over a long period of time, but do not necessarily cause death.
If you had to examine every attacker that way to gain that kind of information, Dim-mak would not be good for anything self-defense-wise.
Was there something specific you wanted to discuss, Chris?
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
I said my study of dim mak throws that time place thing out the window…
Possibly one day I will be using meridians and farmers almanacs to muster up dim mak, that time is not now. At this time I train to knock a fool out by hitting acu-points specifically thats it.
I made a slight error, I meant TCM acu-points not puncture…
“I know a large part of treatment ..is based on knowing the patients age, weight, eating, sleeping, ..medical history, etc, etc, etc. .”
OK YOU HAVE A POINT…I AM NOT A TCM DOCTOR OR PRACTITIONER. IN ONE SENCE YOU ARE CORRECT, DIM MAK DOES TAKE OTHER FACTORS INTO PLAY.
I CAN KNOCK A MAN OUT USING DIM MAK AND I KNOW THAT IT WILL WORK REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIZE RACE DIET WHATEVER. (caps, sorry :})
Maybe the super death touch of gamma rays needs universal allignment, I am not talking about that. My dim mak relies on hitting TCM points in groups and in specific directions.
“Have you ever seen such a thing occur?”
yes i have, will i comment on that? no i wont.
as you said, troll food…
“i got nothing to lose cause
i got nothing to prove”
–D.E.S./darkside family
[This message was edited by centerline vortex on 03-16-01 at 10:52 AM.]
There are points that can be struck and result in severe damage and perhaps even death. You can learn that in just about every Northern Chinese martial art. I have a pair of needle-like bars that rotate around a finger ring (they are not piercers). You can spin them in one way to use as an object to strike the points or spin the to cover the width of the palm and block a kick or punch (no need for steel wrapped in cotton here). They are about 8 inches long and tapered but not to a sharp point. They were given to me for bagua use and brought from Taiwan in the 1980s.
What I have heard regarding dian xue ala Liu Yun Qiao (note heard, never been taught)is that the qi travels throughout the body and arrives at various points during the day and nite. For the strike to be effective, you must know time of day, what organ is weak, what organ is strong etc.. It was rumored that GM Liu had a rotating chart so if you set the time of day, then you knew what organs where weak, what organs were strong, where the qi was at, when it would arrive at the point and where to strike.
Given all of this, how does anyone know if their systems really work? Did anyone practice on an animal(I’ve heard some funny stories about trying to practice on dogs and cows)? I don’t doubt that these things exist, but how do you know if your system works or not? I’ve never really thought about trying what little I know on anyone.
I was told of a story when GM Liu was in the secret service of Jiang Jieshi and was sent of to assinate a Chinese warlord who was negotiating a deal with the Japanese over territory. They got him into the meeting behind a rice paper wall. Liu leaped through and Dim mak??? No, he shot the guy with a pistol and then, with great speed, exited the house with help of the some of the servants.
I wonder, of what use is dim mak/dian xue today? Are any of us in the service of the CIA or others? I wonder if it were as truly effective as we believe, why isn’t it a part of secret service training? Or is it? Perhaps it is not as efficient as today’s weapons?
I just wonder why it should even be of concern to most of us as martial artists. If you use it and it works, I guess it had better be under the most dire of situations or your kungfu uniform will be one of stripes (solid orange?)
Hey count,
I gotta love ya bro, but you’re all mixed up when it comes to understanding Dim-Mak. I am both a Dim-Mak instructor and a TCM doc. You’re simply getting the two confused, as is your instructor. From the time of the man/myth Chang San-feng, who first developed Dim-Mak, two things have been known in general. One, times of day, seasons, etc. are important to the healing side of the art and do have an amplifying effect on point strikes. Two, that it is always much much easier to disrupt the proper flow and balance of qi than to restore it.
As a result, it is not even remotely necessary to use the timing charts to correctly apply Dim-Mak strikes effectively. For artistic reasons at least, you should be aware that Dim-Mak is a historic part of the art of Baguazhang. As for specifics, I won’t discuss it in the forum. I’m actually a bit choosey whom I’ll teach. Not because it’s any deadlier than getting kicked in the head, but because people seem to have a hard time resisting the urge to perform parlor tricks on their friends by KOing the
Dim Mak is all well and good and yes Baguazhang has a complete method of Dim Mak for when a student is READY. The good ol’ fashion palm, knee, elbow, head and finger strikes of Baguazhng should keep a student busy for YEARS before the need and or discussion of Dim Mak should even come up.
I’m only somewhat sure of the amount of people here besides my self that have logged on some 10+ years in the internal arts (esp.) Baguazhang in and of it’s self, for the rest of you that havn’t; how do you feel Dim Mak is going to help improve your Baguazhang?
RAF,
I think you’ve been watching a bit too much Van Damme and WWII spy movies. Obviously, usage of ANY empty hand method isn’t as efficient as simply pulling a trigger on a gun. Also, I think you miss the point of what it can/ought to be used for. IMO, an unarmed civilian has more need to know this information than a heavily-armed gov’t. operative.
Most of the points do NOT result in anything close to death, even with a full blow. The real beauty of it is as a leverage tool for women and smaller men (anyone who wishes, for that matter). It is an equalizer in a sense. Anything which helps someone defeat an attacker is a good thing
Hey Sam,
Nothing specific. I just noticed that in all the discussion of Bagua in here, very little to nothing has been mentioned recently about the Dim-Mak aspects of it.
Kevin, I started Taiji in 82 and Bagua in 94. I agree about their being plenty in Bagua outside of Dim-Mak to keep people busy. In fact, I look at Dim-Mak as simply icing on the cake…you’re art has to work regardless of it, and Bagua does it extremely well. I don’t agree with a student necessarily having to study it for years before learning the Dim-Mak applications. I make that decision student by student. There are some students to whom I probably would never teach it, either because of lack of interest or personality matters
Actually Chris
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>One, times of day, seasons, etc. are important to the healing side of the art and do have an amplifying effect on point strikes. Two, that it is always much much easier to disrupt the proper flow and balance of qi than to restore it. [/quote]
Those are the only 2 points I have made about learning dim mak. I am aware that there are blows and chokes that are knock out and I know of strikes that can totally paralize a person. Not from theory but from first hand experience. And I believe if you are learning these things the more important aspect of the study is the healing aspect, just in case.
I am not saying my instructor is infalable but I think close to 50 years doing and teaching martial arts in China, Taiwan and the United States would be enough time to learn the difference between the truth and the myths about chi. I’m not looking for a debate here. I’m just adding my point of view, which I think I did first, and only to get the discussion going. I can’t help it if people want to believe you can touch someone and three days later they will drop dead. I wouldn’t know how you would go about learning and practicing such a thing. But in my own personal experience, which goes back 20 years now, I have never seen such a thing. As I said before,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> If you can show me facts, I am certainly open to the possibilities. I have been wrong in the past. [/quote]
v
Chris
You may very well be correct in your assessment of what you consider dim mak, however, I have yet to see anyone document a death due to this technique.
Look over the posts. Not one has been documented. As far as the mythology you describe as the basis for dim mak, or more properly dian xue, Chang San-feng has never been proven even to exist and the neijia framework is on relatively shakey grounds. You can read Jerry Allan Johnson’s text for another view.
Bottom line, for those who know these techniques, who have any of you “killed” recently?
You don’t need dim mak to knock someone out. So what is your point about dim mak? You really don’t know if it works or not?
You miss my point. Indeed you may have the techniques, however, in today’s society dim mak, as death touch, serves no useful purpose other than a lot of egos. Beyond that, once again, what’s the point of claiming dim mak and then shrouding it in such great secrecy? Whose going to use it and for what purposes would you use it?
You can see these posts are about to end in a flame out which tells me that this is all about bragging rights. If you have the dim mak, dian xue, and the mythology of Chang San-feng serves you well, then so be it.
raf nice post
how many people here are erle montague or dillman students?
how can we really tell if we are dim mak masters?
have you killed someone with a delayed death touch, montague tells that his young daughters knock him out and doing dim mak on him, still he isnt dead. no disrespect for mr montague but in oz he is not very popular or that good in this case. sorry sam if i have insulted your sifu no intention of doing that, but only telling you how it is here.
it is all good to read accupuncture points like erle and dillman, but doesnt make them dim mak masters.
peace
The phrase "Dim-Mak does not actually mean “death touch” and there are a lot of Dim-Mak applications for a lot of moves that do not kill the person. They are classified as Dim-Mak simply because they utilize acupuncture points in the usage, and the effects in some cases cannot be accounted for except by referencing Chinese Medicine theories and acupuncture.
I have never heard Erle state that his children practice any deadly techniques on him, though I have heard him say that he lets them knock him out to get the feel of it. I believe you are mistaken as to your interpretation of his words.
I have seen and felt the effects of Dim-Mak strikes Erle teaches. I assure you that his stuff works.
Sun Lu-Tang reputedly said that if he had to kill someone to gain students, he would rather not teach, or something like that. Erle has said similar. He’s a lot less brazen than he was several years ago. I have noticed interesting changes in the man over the past few years, myself. But one thing is for certain, he no longer knocks his students or volunteers out for demonstrations. People say he can’t do it or isn’t that good at it because of that. But that’s not the case. The reason he doesn’t do it is because he nearly killed someone during the demonstration once. He knocked him out and the guy almost didn’t wake up. I have also heard him mention other people teaching the same stuff who had accidents during demonstrations and nearly killed someone, and also that there was one case where a guy tried out a kidney KO on his girlfriend (or someone close to him anyway) and killed her.
I rarely try my qi disruption skills anymore because a friend of mine who I tried them on regularly developed a terminal disease for which doctors could find no cause. That scares the **** out of me, just the thought that regularly disrupting someone’s qi without even touching them or anything can **** them up. I don’t know for certain that made him sick, but it scares the **** out of me anyway.
I also have had accidents with training partners where I only tapped them and the effects were profound. I have been struck on Colon meridian points on my arm and developed the most painful cramps, cold sweat, and diarrhea you could possibly imagine. My skin actually changed to a light green shade. I have also been struck so hard on the thigh that my entire leg went numb, as well as my torso on the same side, all the way up into my rib cage, and my vision blurred so badly I could not crawl back into the house.
And all the effects I later found were ones Erle Montaigue said would happen when struck on those points in the same directions.
Furthermore, I can think of several reasons why Erle is not very popular in Australia, and most of them do not have anything directly to do with the martial arts. Erle has a habit of pissing people off who deserve to be pissed off. I know he has said some things that upset some prudes in your society down there, but just because he made a little dirty joke and they got offended not because he said anything specific, but because the images that popped into their heads were quite obscene and rarely seen outside of fetish vodeos, doesn’t mean he’s no good at what he does. Popularity does mean skill, nor does being skilled mean someone is popular.
And Dillman?..whatever. I have heard people who have met him say they don’t like him for various reasons. And from what Erle says, he pissed this guy off at a seminar he (Dillman) was teaching and Dillman broke his finger. He doesn’t sound very nice to me.
Anyway, I have very sound reasons for trusting in Erle, many of which I have never mentioned to anyone here. You are free to believe anything you want, of course.
“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice
hi sam
i am sure erle can knock people out, like most. i dont know the joke he said in oz, but it may have been the other way around. i didnt say he pissed people off, probably did 
but he was a fat taiji teacher that wasnt really respected for his art. i took a few classes when i was around 16yrs old, he is a very nice man, although out of the blue he comes out with taiji dim mak after the dillman explosion here in oz. he jumped on the ban wagon and made money good for him.
i attended his dim mak in oz in 1993-4 and it was accupuncture points and it was new to him, because he said this point and hit this point. didnt know the name of the points then i think. but i respect that he is going well and has made a good name for himself.
his chi disruption forms, where did he learn these?
thanks sam
peace
fiercest tiger,
Did you just wake up or something? From your post here, you seem a bit groggy. You see, Montaigue was marketing Dim-Mak years before Dillman ever went public with his version aka Kyusho-Jitsu. As for your training with him, if that is true, it’s a shame you didn’t stick around enough to learn what the flying fignewton you were talking about.
As for his not remembering points…it happens occasionally to the best of them. I’m a TCM doc myself, and the wise ones have plenty of reference material on hand at all times. With all of the points and the minutiae to remember about each one, occasional lapses in memory are likely to happen. It’s also not necessary to remember the names of points in order to use them correctly.
Your neophytic questions regarding Dim-Mak belie your ignorance of the subject. Ignorance of it isn’t in and of itself a bad thing, but only becomes so when you attempt to pass yourself off as a credible source of valid criticism.
Couldn’t care less
I don’t know what Montague does but unfortunately for us, Dillman was the one to put Dian Mai (Dim Mak) on the map. He learned some stuff from a guy named Hohan Soken in Okinawa and later some stuff from a guy named Seiyu Oyata. Both of these guys are old school. Oyata is still alive and is based somewhere in MS I think. He is the real expert around here not Dillman. Once here in town, He lined up several Karate black belts in a row and went down the line knocking them all out. I’m not into showmanship but I know some of those guys and they are the “fight first, talk laterâ€, redneck, punch you really hard types. Oyata apparently got his stuff from a guy named Uehara who learned from a family lineage called Motobu-Ryu. It’s not at all like Karate and is more like Bagua or Aikido.
Anyway, I have no doubt that the stuff works. There are still some guys doing Dian Mai. The problem is that people think that they can fight with it without putting in the foundational training that we all know is requisite to real skill in the martial arts. I’ve never met a person that could generate the kind of power that Oyata can (even at his advanced age). His Dian Mai is only supplementary to his real skill of punching you in half or breaking your bones with no obvious power.
From what I understand, Yin fu lineage uses needles to poke you in the points but I have never actually seen this or any other type of demonstatable Dian Mai in the Chinese community. Somehow it’s been relegated to the mystical skills (like blowing out a candle from across the room with the point of a finger).
Does anybody have any experience with this from a Chinese artist?
By the way, don’t try the techniques that dillman teaches in a fight. Most of them are basic techniques that only work on people who are standing there!
I do, although why it should matter that he’s Chinese, I’m not sure. Li Xian is my TCM mentor and also my first neijia instructor. Over the years, I’ve seen, and done, both sides of the art…healing as well as combat.
Erle Montaigue teaches Taijiquan and Baguazhang. I’m somewhat surprised that you are aware of Dim-Mak and yet haven’t heard of him, but that’s neither here nor there. The Okinawan styles which contain Kyusho-Jitsu got that way because of centuries of more open trade with China than mainland Japan enjoyed, especially from southern China. It is therefore no surprise that the more fluid and supple Okinawan arts are also the ones which contain information on Dim-Mak/Kyusho-Jitsu.