Baguazhang Dim-Mak

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

chris i did wake up and posted it!

look im not trying to put down montague but have you seen his early tapes before dim mak intricacies etc. his techniques were poor, there were no points nothing it was a joke.
he has now become the american godfather of dim mak!! oh well, you guys are easily mislead in the states. his skill now maybe a whole lot better i hope, or we are talking about another erle montague.

im no dim mak master, i dont believe anyone is because you need to prove it! we hit guys standing there and off a punch or a kick and knock them out, drain energy , yin and yang theories, 5 elements. each kung fu system has different points names and sometimes effects. accupuncture is moderfied for these dim mak masters to make them look good. anyone can learn it.

goodluck in your dim mak!

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

22

It may very well be true that Erle could not name any of the points back then. He may not remember all the names now. Hell, I don’t even remember them and I am constantly referring to books on the subject. What is important is that I know exactly where to strike, in which direction, and the correct amount of power to use. I know it because my body remembers even if I forget all the little technicalities like the names.

Erle used to not teach Dim-Mak. In fact, when he first started he tried to leave it pretty basic. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, other teachers who also have point striking knowledge have given out far less detail than Erle.

I honestly don’t understand what his weight has to do with anything, yet I hear this same comment being made by many people. Yang Cheng Fu was way fatter than Erle. In fact, Erle has made jokes about how fat Cheng Fu was. (Not directly, but you know exactly what he’s talking about.)

Erle did not just come out of the blue with the stuff, though. If the interviews with his master translated and posted on his site are real, then his master made a reference to Dim-Mak in one of those interviews.He said there were two ways to use Taiji. One was the normal martial arts way, where we break bones, joints, and stuff like that. The other was “too sinister” for him to discuss publicly. He may not have used the words Dim-Mak, but that’s it nonetheless.

In any case, it is not necessary to kill someone with the stuff to prove that one is competent in its use or has mastered a system. I used to hear fantasy tales about how you had to kill someone to get certain dan rankings in Karate when I was a kid. But I have yet to meet any 3rd or 5th dan Karateka who have killed anyone.

I agree that there are many out there who believe they can fight using a few point strikes with no real skill to back them up. I learned that the hard way several years ago. I was discussing point striking with a friend who practiced Karate, and he challenged me to perform a move he knew I could not possibly pull off. Except he did not just prove I could not do it. He punched me in the chest once all my attention was focused on atriking the points so hard he stopped my heart. When I could get up off the floor, I made the decision that I wanted the skills to back up all the point striking stuff. I found a system I liked, and work all I can to become a better fighter without the Dim-Mak. I consider that an extra now, not the be all end all of martial arts techniques.

And by the way, the reason his stuff looks like it has changed is because it has. It’s called growth. It’s advancement.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

23

My two cents…

I was taught the body’s internal energy clock is constant and universal, regardless of personal sleep patterns.

“Death-touching” and “energy disruption” are definitely not the property of CMA alone, although I can’t prove that the skills that have developed in these other nations’ martial arts did not originate in China.

24

I don’t think that the internal clock is consistent like that. I personally think that it changes with our sleep, eating, bathroom and other habits. For instance, If you go to bed around 11 pm and get up at 7, then the meridian times charts will pretty much be accurate for you. But if you are a night owl they will be different. Also, the clock can change if you change your habits dramatically.

I also think that the time charts have more to do with healing than with point striking. It would make no sense for the system to depend on being able to strike points most effective at the particular instant you are attacked. Only an idiot would depend on a system like that. I mean, would you study a system that told you that you could only use Rollback at certain times of the day? That’s the kind of bull we’re talking about.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

25

sam i take back what i said!!!

i have had a few of erles guys train at my school and become my students, im sure he knows his points better than me. the interview with his teacher is another thing that is funny, also he said he has a masters degree in china, the certificate was of his demo in china push hands, forms etc. there was something here in oz about this certificate that was talked about and wasnt all the truth.

he is a good man and loves his students, as long as you are happy mate. sorry if i disrespected your sifu.
where did he learn the chi disruption from? :slight_smile:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

26

Erle says he learned the first 4 forms of the system from his teacher, Chang Yiu-chun, and that he learned the rest of the system from the current head of the system, a man whose name he spells Liang Shih-khan. His spelling is pretty wierd, but he has never used any of the normal systems of spelling. Anyway, he says that Liang lives near Wudang Shan. He also learned a system of push hands-like exercises from Liang, corresponding to each of the qi disruption forms.

I just thought of something. Not only do several of the qi disruption forms contain moves from Bagua and Taiji, but the Wudang “push hands” exercise he has posted on the the net is almost exactly the same movement as one of the sequences from his old Yang form, called “moving hands like willow tree”. (It’s a penetration punch, backfist, kick parry and double palm attack.) It’s also very similar to a move in the old Yang form that comes right before Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger. Anyway, just thought I’d throw that out there.

Anyway, I’m glad that those students have found the teacher they’re meant to be with. Erle actually encourages people to look into other systems. That’s one of the reasons.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

27

Seiyu Oyata

Just as a note, Taika Oyata learned most of his material from Kenyu Uhugusuku and Wakinaguri. He did associate with Uehara of Motobu Ryu and was his training partner but does not claim to have learned Kyusho from him, but rather Mr. Wakinaguri. Taika Oyata was also a student of Shigeru Nakamura whose forms (kata) he still teaches.

Just my $0.02.

KG

28

Documentation

Peace.
I’d just like to give my input to this discussion

To say that there’s been no documentation i’d have to disagree. while it’s not in the american daily
Newspapers, it is out there. for example: when asked on the subject By R.W. Smith, Chang Man ching related a story. Back in the early days
(1920’s) when he did platform fighting He even fought to a draw Famed natural fist Grandmaster Tu Hsin Wu. From this time forward he gain in fame.
After some years of experiance and attainment.
A famed martial artist challanged him. They mete
and Chang defeated him. Before leaving the said in
three years i’ll be back. Chang’s respect for the man’s skill was such that chang went and studied
under a very famous master at the time. the 3yrs
where up but the man never showed up. and to add to this, He was asked why didn’t he teach it?
he said because he’d learned only the injurous
side of the technique in respect for the challanger.he’d have had to spend double the time to learn the healing side. he was on a path.

now if your a person of the age to know about Chang Man Ching. When he was alive!
Except for certain individuals, he was the best fighter in tiwan. totallt undefeated. but yet he went to study Duan Xue. What does that meanto
the death touch credability. If such a man would learn it after reaching such a level, it specks for it self. also i got this from the man himself,
Kwan Sai hung The Wandering taoist, Told in his autobiography, while a part of a team trying to catch a renegade, the renegade was a killer and the method used was Dim Mak. He learned it and he’s seen it. And has taught on a 4th of what he knows

Chris.

Why hasn’t this subject come up? Because like Kevin said Most of the people on this forum don’t have better than 10yrs in the arts. And thier level in it is where we are.

But like you chris,
I choose by the individual, not by the years.
I just don’t want to waste my time.

just to give some input to the topic.

Peace
Maosh

29

mistake

Excuse my in put here.
I didn’t realize that there were two pages, and was responding to the first.
Also i Don’t know why my post looks like this.
(typeo) I hope yall could understand it.
Peace
MaoShan

30

Maoshan:

I do not think there is any doubt about the potential of dian xue but with regard to those who claim to have it, how do they know they have it? There is no ultimate way to prove it legally short of striking someone, waiting for their death, and the coroner perform an autopsy, verifying the reason of death with the predictions of the strike.

The article you refer, I believe, also states that the training is very intense and Chang Man-Ching abandoned efforts after 3 years.

Over the years, I have seen so many so-called Masters make outrageous claims about dian xue. Who are they really serving? Their egos?

Many systems teach various points to strike—Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Dr. Jerry Allan Johnson (who head a TCM school) are examples of a few. Over the years, I have seen this taught in bagua, praying mantis, taiji. I think the claim of dian xue serves a lot of bragging and my main point is that even if you attain the expertise, it is not likely you will ever use it in your lifetime. Why? Because if you succeed, you better have a great defense lawyer or you’ll be practicing kung fu with a ball and chain (hmmm like the founder of Xing Yi?).

So unless you have tried out your technique and killed someone, you really do not know if you have it. Anything less than a kill may not be attributable to dian xue—you can knock out people many ways and damage people many ways without reference to points.

So in the end, why do martial artists run around around telling people of their expertise in dian xue? Can you get certified in it? Rhetorically, what master are we serving

31

I ask you again, why would one have to prove they have it by killing someone? That is like saying “prove you can drive by racing in a Nascar race.” That’s the art in the extreme. There are other things that can be done to show you have it. A KO under realistic conditions would be one of them, though that is still extreme.

I have trained with people who I had attack me full force so I could learn the feel of the technique in a more realistic scenario. Many of them felt drained after a simple block and had to sit down. I didn’t even get to practice the technique before they had to rest or cradle their arm from the pain. Others, I reacted so quickly that I hit a point on accident instead of pulling the strike, and had to look up antidotes to it before they became sick.

Anyway, you guys will believe what you want about the stuff, so I’m not going to try and convince you too hard. Like when I was over at my friend Terry’s house eating dinner with his family, and I told them I was too full to eat any more, and his father said, “good, leaves more for me.” :slight_smile:

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

32

“prove you can drive by racing in a nascar race”

No, the analogy is quite the opposite. Its like claiming you have the skill to drive in a nascar race, i.e. the skill of dian xue, yet arguing you can simply demonstrate possesion of this skill by driving in a stock car race.

You may know how to drive the car, understand the physics and mechanics of the car and road, but until you put the pedal to the floor in a nascar race, you really do not know if you have the skill to successfully compete or even win in a nascar race. To claim a supreme mastery of dian xue today, requires a great leap of faith.

I do not know if this is true or not but I heard that in the development of TCM, the mapping of the acupuncture points were often performed on prisoners—testing to see the effect of stimulating or blocking a point. In one dynasty, supposedly one of the early emperors had his doctors skin people alive in an attempt to map out the circulation of qi. If true, I suspect that dian xue was experimented and practiced on, the unlucky souls who were captured in battle.

Not publishable by today’s standards, I suppose

33

Yes, Bob, rather gruesome to put through the peer review process . . .

34

Wujidude:

Hell, I can’t even get any of my students to volunteer for extra credit on this one!

The cats and dogs in the neighborhood avoid me like hell too!

I think I’ll just give up this dian xue kick and go back to practicing my palm strikes on the good old dog skin!

35

Dim-Mak is the very beginning, not the end. There are things more awesome than it, and much more advanced. If you think Dim-Mak is the ultimate end or goal, then your view is limited, I would say. Maybe that is what people do not understand, that it is merely the beginning.

I think of Dim-Mak like the black belt in Karate. It is not nearly the end, it is merely the beginning of an in depth study. And mastery of the art does not come until later, though Dim-Mak would be a prerequisite for mastering it anyway.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

36

I am aware if jie mo, na nai, and dian xue. If dian xue is simply the beginning, then please, by all means tell us where it ultimately leads. I’m all ears!

However, if this leads to a discussion of kong jing, then we can stop here. That really presses the limits of verifiability.

37

I don’t believe in kong jing, either. Hell, as outlandish as I get, I still laugh at it.

But the things beyond Dim-Mak I don’t talk about on the net. In fact, I don’t even talk about them in person. Except for healing touch and stuff, because healing is always a higher goal.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

38

I thought so. You’ve proven me correct. End of the story.

39

unity and responsibilty for the universe?

40

…multiverse?