Baguazhang Dim-Mak

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

No RAF, it is not the end of the story. I do not talk about them on the net because they are best discussed in person, and I consider them highly personal matters. I simply do not want to talk about them with people who have not had the same or similar experiences. I talked this weekend with a man who had had similar experiences and we could speak about them in depth. They are all estoric, and all need subjective experience and not objective scientific explanation. My argument against you right now might go something like the Christian argument that says just because you can’t prove God exists doesn’t mean he doesn’t, since it seems you want to say that there is nothing beyond it simply because I will not tell you what is beyond it. There are some things you must find yourself, and there are some things you simply must experience for yourself. I cannot tell you how much or what lays beyond it for you for several reasons, the least of which is that I do not know how far you are willing to go. Some of the things I am referring to might be classified as the “dark side” of the energetic arts (which is exactly how this guy I talked with this weekend referred to it when we were talking).

In the end, you will go only so far as you are willing. You will progress only until you are no longer willing to sacrifice to learn. And how far you go will be limited by what you believe. I think I’ll leave it at that.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

42

OK, I’ve never gotton into these arguments but this stuff is getting ridiculous. Sam, if your profile is correct, you are 24 years old and have practiced 7 years. There is no way you could have learned Dim Mak, you don’t have enough time in. At 7 years, assuming you trained hard AND correctly the whole time, you just couldn’y be there yet.

You could hit hard as hell, be able to accurately target broad vital points and may be able to pull off some decent chin na. But dim mak, no.

I’m not trying to cut on you. If the content of your posts is any indication to your personality, you sound like a real cool guy. But re read what you write and try to see it from a 3rd party perspective. It may sound a little different to you then.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics

43

Water Dragon:

Sam is right, that the board is no place for discussions of this nature. There is too much room for misunderstanding.

For example, my own dealings with one doctor of TCM and one doctor of TCM out of Beijing over the last 5 years, indicates that qi moves from various organs and points every 2 hours and for the death touch(not simply to hurt them) you need to strike at the point where the qi has accumulated at that time in order for the death strike to be successful. Now if you read over these posts, others, fullly credentialed, make a far different claim. Whose TCM theory and practice is right?

No one can convince the other and so everything collapeses into name calling, my dad can beat your dad i.e. my knowledge of Chinese medicine is better than your knowledge of Chinese medicine. So what the hell. Doesn’t matter who is right, does it? Again, I am not sure what all this discussion serves other than bragging rights and ego. No one will change their practice as a result of these discussions. I sure won’t and would not expect others to do so.

So on with other topics, in the end, none of really matters. You don’t need dian xue to beat the **** out of anyone. Who really wins in fight today? The lawyers

44

There are things not in my profile, such as the fact that I have been practicing qigong far longer than I have practiced Taiji or Bagua. I practiced different Chinese standing qigongs for over a year before learning any Taiji, and before that I practiced several different systems of eosteric breathing practices from other cultures. (I was the wierd kid with some odd religious, magic, hypnosis or meditation book with me all the time.) And unlike the rest of the Taiji community (it seems) I started with learning fa-jing and energy transference in conjunction with even more qigong and honing of my reflexes.

You say I’m too young. If I were 80, you would say I started too late. There’s always something.

I have always said that if you do not believe me, you are welcome to try me out and see the truth. I have been saying that since day one. Sure, I’m not the best, I’m not a master, but I can do it. It only takes a couple of years to be able to do it. It’s only to master it that it takes a lifetime. And admittedly, I’m no master yet.

Have you ever considered that I’m completely mad and that everything I write is bull? Have you ever considered that I’m the most successful troll you’ve ever seen? It’s possible, you know. :smiley:

On the other hand, have you ever considered coming to train with me and seeing if what I have works instead of telling me what I do and don’t know, or what I can and cannot possibly know?

Just a thought… :smiley:

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

45

RAF, agreed 100 %. However, the time spent training the death touch is time you’re not focusing on other stuff. Historically the death touch is an advanced level skill. To me, that means most people don’t have it. Those that do most likely have a head full of gray hair if they have any at all. They also had to find someone to teach it to them which is no small feat in itself. They also need to master a lot of other advanced stuff to get to that point.

A brief summary

  1. If you’re studying the dreaded Dim Mak, you’re probabbly kidding yourself and could use that time and energy better

  2. I really am sick and tired of Gong Fu getting no respect because everyone sees people talking about all this crap and when asked to prove it, they just can’t produce.

  3. I know I won’t change any minds. But maybe some new guy will read this post, it will make sense to them, and they will develop real Gong Fu relatively quickly by focusing on solid basics and progressing from there.

  4. My biggest ability in CMA came at the point when I became able to distinguish between the treasures and the crap. It took me about 6 years to get there,

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics

46

Oops…looks like we were all typing at about the same time there.

Anyway, you must remember the distinction between the person who wants to add the skill to their own art or who learns the skill as a part of their art, and the person who decides to pick up a book and poke people in points to make them die.

There’s a difference.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

47

intent with dim mak

ok so we have a debate… how much does intent play into the use and application of dim mak?

[This message was edited by centerline vortex on 04-05-01 at 11:16 AM.]

48

Water Dragon:

There is a lot that I agree with in your post. I have seen a lot of mystical BS, especially with those who claim dian xue and kong jing and many fools get parted from their money.

I know there is a lot more that can be done in the basics and I suspect that is the place to hang out. Too much time and energy has been expended on this particular area.

The so-called mystical is to be experienced, not discussed. Basics are where its at and if you stay on them long enough, you might be surprised at what one discovers.

Take good care

49

Intent

>>ok so we have a debate… how much does intent play into the use and application of dim mak?<<<

Think of it as punching somebody, if you don’t intend or really mean to do it, then chances are its not going to be near effective as if you really meant it.

50

Kevin:

Can you elaborate on that? ;- )

Are you high or what?

51

The key to that is in the reptile brain.

When we as humans drop into the reptile brain, concious thought stops. Emotions as well stop, including aggression. The only thing that is left is primal instinct and reflex. Fight or flight.

If we intend to just hit someone, then we do not intend to do everything necessary to survive, even if that is the situation. (Though my belief is that it’s pretty hard to supress the survival instinct when it really comes down to it. Even the gentlest souls will kill to survive if they really have to.) If we intend to hurt someone, then we are emotionally involved in the strike, and that is wrong. That means that we have taken emotional offense at something the person has done (as if in the cosmic scheme of things it mattered).

But if logical thought and emotion are filtered out, and all that is left is the bare essentials of the survival instincts, then there is no intent to simply hit someone and move on, nor is there any emotional significance in the struggle. What we are left with is intent unmarred by logic and emotion.

The intent then, is pure, and there is no real thought accompanying it, just as we become emotionally detached from the struggle. We become locked into his energy, and can only back off if he does. We will also only attack if we feel threatened enough, like if he becomes violent and steps too close for our survival brain’s comfort. It’s like a rattlesnake. The rattler doesn’t think to itself that it must do this or die, nor does it think that if it bites the ankle maybe this human will leave it alone. The rattler also does not hate the person or the ankle and does not strike out of emotion. It strikes because the person steps too close and may have stepped on it, so it strikes out of necessity. It will then back off and wait for the human to either reattack (read: step closer) or for the human to refuse to back off, before it strikes again.

Anyway, I’m not sure how to explain it other than talking about the reptile brain. It’s something you have to feel. I can tell you what I have experienced, though. I was sparring with a friend one time, and things got a bit out of hand. He hit me and everything just sort of went into slow motion, I could hear but not quite understand what he was saying, and after he backed off, I just kept waiting for him to step in closer. Every time he would, I’d take a step in. I don’t remember everything, but I do remember him eventually backing off all the way across the room. The whole time, every time he would come closer, I could feel my intent rise and drive me toward him. It was almost like some part of me was going “killkillkill” every time he got too close.

If you do the training to bring out this part of your mind, then you will actually feel the intent. But yes, intent should play a large part in striking death points. If you are going to train to strike vital points and kill someone, you’d better train to bring out the intent, and you’d better train to go into your survival mode. This is the kind of stuff you do if it turns into a fight for your life. You don’t do it just to hurt someone, and you don’t do it to show off, and you don’t do it to win a tournament.

If you want, I can post a few methods of bringing out this part of you, and you will feel the intent if you keep escalating the situation (which can get dangerous). Just let me know.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

52

An interesting tale. Consider the following from The Essence of Internal Martial Arts: Esoteric Fighting Techniques and Healing Methods by Master Instructor Jerry Alan Johnson.

SECTION FOUR: DEATH TOUCH METHODS AND THEORY

Chapter 23: Death Touch: Ssu Ch’u Chueh

This system is called "Ssu Ch’u Chueh and is a highly specialized art of killing without leaving a trace, divided into 3 separate categories.

  1. The first level is called T’ien Ching which is the method of attacking the nerves and nerve plexus of the body in order to produce paralysis. This also includes spinal paralysis.

  2. The next category is called T’ien Hsueh (dian xue in pinyin) which is the method of striking the blood vessels in order to seal the veins and arteries or cause blood clots.

  3. The final category is called T’ien Hsing Ch’i which is the method of attacking the ch’i meridians of the body in order to cause death at a later date by blocking chi circulation.

BY UNDERSTANDING THE MERIDIAN FLOW OF CHI AND BOTH THE OPEING AND CLOSING OF THE VITAL POINTS OF THE BODY, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO INTERCEPT THE CHI IN THE “BLOOD GATES” OR “NERVE GATES” AT THEIR RELATED TIME OF DAY AND SEASON.
pp. 163-164.

Chapter 24: Attacking the Nerves: T’ien Ching

Striking the nervious system is usually the first level and the most common way of self defense.

In this chapter, Master Instructor Johnson lays out, in diagram, all of the nerves and on pp.184-85 lays out the ways of healing paralysis.

Chapter 25: Attacking the Blood Vessels: T’ien Hsueh

Striking the opponent in order to manipulate, seal, or destroy his blood vessels and gates is usually the second level of Ssu Ch’u Chueh.

The art of T’ien Hsueh is governed by a 24-hour, five season and twelve major organ cycles. All three are extremely important. In the 24 hour cycle the BLOOD AND CHI pas through the 12 meridians. Each has a time period of 2 HOURS each day consisting of high and low tide. This is of primary importance in terms of the circulation of chi and will be explained later. In 24 hours the blood passes through 12 major organis of teh body: gall bladder, liver, lungs, large intestine, stomach, spleen, heart, small intestine, bladder, kidney, brain and testciles. This flow is not regular. At high tide it will roar through the veins likde a tidal wave, while at low tide, it will seep through like a tricling stream. STRIKING THESE ORGANS WILL CAUSE INFLUENTIAL POINTS TO STAGNATE AND SOMETIMES REVERS THE FLOW OF ENERGY AND BLOOD. THIS TYPE OF ATTACK CAN ONLY SUCCEED IF THE INTERNAL ENERGY IS DIRECTED EXACTLY AT THE POINT, THE MEMENT WHEN THE CHI AND BLOOD ARE AT A MAXIMUM.. . . .

IF A VESSEL IS SEALED (AS IN LOW TIDE), THAT PARTICULAR WILL E BLOCKED FROM RECEIVING ENERGY OR BLOOD CIRCULATION, RESULTING IN BLOOD STAGNATION, MOTOR IMPAIRMENT AND DETERIORATION OF THAT SPECIFIC BODY AREA.

The Chinese discovered very long ago that the cyclical movement of energy and blood in the huma body is time-related and undergoes a waxing and waning process. Examples of body fluctuation in accordance with natures rhythms are numerous. fluctuations in corticosterone (thats why they believe most asthma attacks occur at night or at around 4:00 am) and palsm ATCh levels in the body following a cyclel pattern during the course of the day have been well documented (from my days in biology, he is correct). The jet lag phenomenon is nknow to take palce due to the interruption of circadian rhythms in teh body.

He then goes on to lay out the times

25-5 FUNCTIONAL T’IEN HSUEH STRIKING AND ITS AFTER EFFECTS PP. 196-199

Before using the T’ien Hsueh striking skill, you shoudl first determine the experienc of your opponent and his body structure. If he possesses a strong solid physique, then it would be most advantageous to use a Vibrating Fa Chin to penetrate and attack his organs, especially if he has had some sore of iron shirt training. If he has not had any body conditioning, they you can attack with Crushing Fa Chin. Keep in mind that anything over 70 pounds of pressure will damange the striking points. The blood will rush into the specific body areas after the chin has moved through. WHEN THE AREA IS FULL OF BLOOD (OR AT HIGH TIDE) YOU SHOULD ATTACK THE MAJOR ORGANS OR GLANDS IN THSOE PRECISE AREAS. FOR EXAMPLE, IF THE TIME IS BETWEEN 1-3 PM (FOR THE SMALL INTESTING MERIDIAN TIME) BOTH THE CHI AND BLOOD WILL FILL THE ABDOMINAL AREA AND STOMACH. THIS IS CONSIDERED HIGH TIDE AND THE AREA MOST VULNERABLE TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE. THE 12 HOUR OPPOSITE TIME IS 1-3 AM IS CONSIDERED LOW WHICH CORRESPONDS TO THE LIVER MERIDIAN. tHAT MERIDIAN AREA IS CONSIDERED DEFICIENT AND IS EASY TO PENETRATE MAKIT IT MORE VULNERABLE TO SPOTTING OR SEALING THE BLOOD VESSELS OR ARTERIES. DURING “SPOTTING” OR “POINT STRIKING” YOUR ENERGY MUST RELEASE LIKE A SPRING. THE STRIKING SPEED SHOULD BE FAST BECAUSE THE QUICK ACTION ACTION OF THE STRIKE WILL PRODUCE HEAT WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO CAUTERIZATION WITH MOXA. THE STRIKE WILL STIMULATE THE TISSUES CAUSING THE LOCAL CAPILLARIES TO EXPAND PRODUCING REDDENING AND HEAT ON, AND AOUR THE SURROUDNING AREAS OF THE BODY CAVITY POINT. THE HEAT FROM THIS TYPE OF STRIKE IS MUCH LESS DRY THAN MOXA AND HAS THE ABILITY TO ABSORB FLUIED FROM THE BODY’S YIN AND YANG BALANCE. . . THERE ARE GENERALLY THREE TYPES OF SYMPTOMS WHICH RESULT FROM ATTACKING THE BOOLD VESSELS OR ORGANS, THEY ARE STAGNATION OF THE BLOOD, HEAT IN THE BLOOD AND DEFICIENCY OF BLOOD.

THE BLOOD AND CHI MSUT MOVE TOGETHER. IF THE BLOOD CIRCULATION IS DIRUPTED BY TRAUMA, THE BLOOD WILL STAGNATE IN THE AREA OF THE INJURY AND BECUASE OF THE RECIPROCAL LINK BETWEEN BLOOD AND CHIE, THE CHI WILL ALSO STAGNATE. HENCE THEMAIN GOAL OF SEALING THE VESSELS OR “SPOTTING”.

EXAMPLE: STAGNANT BLOOD IN THE HEART–MAY RESULT IN A SUFFOCATING SENSATION IN THE CHEST, CARDIAC PAIN AND GREEN PURPLISH LIPS.

25-6 T’ien Chang Fu: Striking the Major Organs

The chang or Yin organs are considered solid organs wheras the Fu or Yang organs are considered hollow organs. Both should be struck with an expanding Fa-Chin or exploing eneregy when the organs are full. The eneregy is regulated into either expansion or contraction by the controlling the electromagneticflow of particls via the MINDS INTENT ISSUING OUTWARD THROUGH THE ARMS. The best time to strike the Chang-Fu organs is when they are full if you goal is to destroy the major organ itself.

Lungs-strike on inhalation (Peak time: 2-5 am)
heart & Pericardium-strike during physical exertion when the heart rate is up or between 11-1 pm (peak time: 11:00am-1pm)

The list goes on in more detail. He illustrates where to strike glands, he lists 36 fatal points, they are illustrated with herbal formula antidotes. Shows in great detail knockout points.

His last chapter on attacking the body’s energy is most interesting in that these strategies disrupt the electromagnetic field of the body.

Okay, the end, at least for now. Is Master Jerry Alan Johnson accurate or not? I do not know him personally so for me its unverifiable. If he is the real thing, then this whole topic is extremely complicated and the actual application is based on historical anecdotes or faith that you have trained well enough to carry out such strikes: There are not very many times you get to practice these techniques over and over again, like, say a form or punching. If this is a fake then another interesting tale to be told.

This weekend I heard of a guy who went to such a school and was taught all of these techniques. Later, most of the students discovered that their so-called teacher (not nationally known, a local and quite rich) was taking it right out of the books and tapes of Jerry Alan Johnson. The teacher told them that he was an indoor student–why? The students threatened to go and ask if he really knew this stuff. The teacher responded that Johnson would deny it, since they were all members of a so-called secret society. Many students quit and many stayed. So faith still plays a major role in the martial arts.

If this material is accurate, then there are no secrets, to steal a phase. If it is inaccurate, then this guy is a helluva of writer and should be in the martial arts movies.

What’s your take :eek:

53

Cant remain silent any longer

Chris and Sam,
you guys have covered just about everthing!! But you know me! I just cant hold it any longer.

Water Dragon-
You are totally wrong on the fact that dim-mak is only some advanced stuff that is a waste of time and is not practical. I teach mainly the dim-mak aspect of taijiquan/baguazhang, in my expeiriance teaching students learn how to use dim-mak strikes at a reactive level is VERY easy. These strikes do not kill, but simply render the attacker KO’d. These are the best type of techniques to teach to women, and smaller men who can use them immediately againsnt someone much bigger. Of course if you add in the use of the reptile brain and fa-jing, as sam said you have a dangerous cocktail.
As for it being effective, after myself learning some points-ect. for only 6 months, I used a strike to knock someone out who pulled a knife on me! As far as the accuall DEATH strikes, I have spoken to doctors who have confirmed they are medically sound. Also I “Allegedly” know of persons unknown affiliated with such agency’s unknown that have USED these death strikes, and for obvious reasons cannot document there effect.Im done for now!!!

54

Oh yes, of course, I completely understand why you cannot comment on said agencies. Especially with the conspiracy going on. You know, the aliens crashing into our plane and blaming it on the Chinese.

You are teaching women how to be raped and killed to fulfill some fantasy. I’m sorry to everyone else on this board because I know how I’m sounding right now, but that is terrible. How can you feed that crap to a trusting individual, especially a woman and place her in a situation where she will be much more than just beaten when it fails and it will.

I won’t post on this topic anymore, there is no point. But that crap just makes me sick!

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics

55

Hehehe

Water Dragon, what can I say? On target.
:smiley:

RAF, if I understand what your post is saying, it would seem Sifu Johnsons line of thought falls pretty much in line with what I have been taught about Dim Mak. I will have to read more!ˇ

56

Sorry Waterdragon

Sorry waterdragon,
I didnt mean to spark a psychodic episode! I have used the techniques I teach to save my own life, and if you dont beleive in “said agencies” then you are a complete idiot. I have been working for the government for 4 years,and have seen and heard enough for a lifetime.
Also a person with such limited knowledge should not demean the taiji classics by quoting them after such ego driven rantings. I invite you to come to my school and see the dim-mak’s applications hands-on!the location is Tinker Air Force Base, Ok. I personnally do not attack anyones art unless I have seen it first hand. Sam is in georgia( might be closer), he is an instructor under the same organization, he might give you free demo as well.

57

Count:

Precisely what I was thinking. In a sense, that is how I verify what I have picked up over the years. There is a lot more detail in the book, especially with regard to palm training. Most of my palm training is in pigua zhang and the underlying principle of the strikes is jie mai (stop the blood flow). Master Johnson also has a bagua chart just like the one you posted.

So, I have at least 2 maybe three sources that support what I have been taught out of the Wu Tang lineage.

The truth be known, if I knock someone out, I won’t really know whether it was dian xue or simply the power itself. In baji and also the sword, there are a number of points we strike with the palm. Even in GM Liu’s taiji there are some points which are struck. However, the probability that I will ever use these techniques is ever so slim. No one bothers me and I don’t bother anyone, also.

If Johnson is a fake, then maybe I’ll have to rethink what I have learned.

58

Hey Gary,
I wouldn’t bother. I have gathered information from a lot of sources and people just don’t believe it. Unless it’s someone they can look up in the phone book and argue with themselves, they don’t want to hear it. But hey, if he’s willing to come all the way to GA to feel it work, I’m up for it.

With regards to the statement about giving something like this to trusting people who could get hurt: whatever. Taijiquan works with reflex actions, is powered by the entire body during the strike, and the strikes are aimed at the body’s natural vulnerable points. Now I ask you to tell me how you could possibly go wrong using something like that.

Anyway, gotta go.

“I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust.”
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

59

“As far as the accuall DEATH strikes, I have spoken to doctors who have confirmed they are medically sound.”

What doctors are these, and where can I find information on this?

60

Mr. Nemos question

hey Nemo,
What doctors? Well just my local US air force doctors.There are very obvious dim-mak strikes that will cause death, such as rupturing the small and large meningeal arteries causing blood to flood the brain. Others include the carotid sinus strike st.9, which besides its instant KO effect can also induce a heart attack, because this controls blood flow in the body. Also there are strikes to injure the brain stem,ect..these are the most evident, for more points and detailed info go to www.taijiworld.com there you can look at point location diagrams, and order Erle Montaigues “encyclopedia of dim-mak” this a very good reference guide that will show the points, damage, healing.ect. If you have any other specific questions feel free to email me,
Gary