Little TRUTH has been written about this subject.
Much rumors, skeptics and embelishments have made the subject an object of ridicule to some…but there now is medical research that has shown that the ancient practioners DID know what they were doing…if not scientifcally…at least by trial and error.
Below are a couple of websites
[B]http://www.dimmak.net/index.asp[/B]
JD
Dim Mak
This is nothing new, we refer to this as busting someones Chi.One must be very trusted/responsible before your Master will teach you this.
Take care and be well
Dim Mak
You are correct Phuc Carem.
Wisely the Old Masters knew that such knowledge in the wrong hands is dangerous. Even in the 'right hands" there are no guaretees.:eek:
Fortunetely it takes years of serious practice, conditioning, study and knowing
chi flow, meridian patterns and other things to become proficient.
Most students dont have the patience or personality to endure the training required for proficiency.
Thank God.
JD
[QUOTE=JDK;730035]You are correct Phuc Carem.
Wisely the Old Masters knew that such knowledge in the wrong hands is dangerous. Even in the 'right hands" there are no guaretees.:eek:
Fortunetely it takes years of serious practice, conditioning, study and knowing
chi flow, meridian patterns and other things to become proficient.
Most students dont have the patience or personality to endure the training required for proficiency.
Thank God.
JD[/QUOTE]
JDK,
Isn’t it you on the other thread saying that CMA is stupid and MMA is the only thing that works?
Let’s Be Real
[QUOTE=lunghushan;730144]JDK,
Isn’t it you on the other thread saying that CMA is stupid and MMA is the only thing that works?[/QUOTE]
Thats not anywhere close to what I said lunghushan.
Are you argumentative by nature or do you just like to try and start fights?:rolleyes:
My question was WHY no CMA practioners enter the UFC.
Re read my posts…maybe you have ADD or something…but you sure missed the entire intent of that discussion.
JD
[QUOTE=JDK;730173]Thats not anywhere close to what I said lunghushan.
Are you argumentative by nature or do you just like to try and start fights?:rolleyes:
My question was WHY no CMA practioners enter the UFC.
Re read my posts…maybe you have ADD or something…but you sure missed the entire intent of that discussion.
JD[/QUOTE]
Usually when somebody posts a question, and responds with a lot of arguments for or against a topic, they have an agenda. One could assume your agenda by your posts was arguing that CMA is ineffective.
So what is your agenda, then? Are you just fact gathering?
My agenda, BTW, for this post is to point out the seeming hipocrisy of posting that CMA doesn’t win UFCs, alluding to the fact that CMA has no skills, and then countering with a post that would suggest the opposite.
Ufc
[QUOTE=lunghushan;730234]Usually when somebody posts a question, and responds with a lot of arguments for or against a topic, they have an agenda. One could assume your agenda by your posts was arguing that CMA is ineffective.
So what is your agenda, then? Are you just fact gathering?
My agenda, BTW, for this post is to point out the seeming hipocrisy of posting that CMA doesn’t win UFCs, alluding to the fact that CMA has no skills, and then countering with a post that would suggest the opposite.[/QUOTE]
No agenda.
As I said in another post, this discussion is new to me.
I have stated my conclusion also…CMA IS ineffective in the UFC.
Thats not an opinion…it is a fact.
The reasons that have been posted to support this have been:
[b]1)Traditional Masters dont dare enter for fear of loss of credibility and Income)
2) UFC Fighters are 21rst Century Fighters with modern day advances at their disposal
3) TMA is effective against most attackers on the street, IF the person defendig themself have had solid training and are diligent practioners.
4) Training today, must incorporate regular fullcontact practice, grappling skills, Western Boxing and Cardio training.[/b]
JD
[QUOTE=JDK;730278]No agenda.
As I said in another post, this discussion is new to me.
I have stated my conclusion also…CMA IS ineffective in the UFC.
Thats not an opinion…it is a fact.
The reasons that have been posted to support this have been:
JD[/QUOTE]
OK … … …
more dim mak
what happened to the dim mak discussion?
Do you really think it ‘busts the qi’ or are the strikes in areas that would receive damage anyways, i.e. site of vessels, nerve plexuses, weak bone areas, etc…?
ox
Dim Mak
[QUOTE=herb ox;730582]what happened to the dim mak discussion?
Do you really think it ‘busts the qi’ or are the strikes in areas that would receive damage anyways, i.e. site of vessels, nerve plexuses, weak bone areas, etc…?
ox[/QUOTE]
You are partially right HerbOx…and definetley on the right track. Too begin to undersatnd Dim Mak, we ned to understand the Ying or in ithis case Acupuncture
the ability to heal by manipulating one’s energy force.
According to the ancient theories of acupuncture, the body has a circulating life force (chi or ki) that travels through invisible channels called meridians.
According to this theory, diseases are the result of disruptions in the flow of one’s life force or chi. Acupuncture points are located on the meridians and represent areas where the flow of energy can be altered. [b]There are multiple methods of manipulating the acupuncture points including finger pressure, burning herbs, and inserting needles. The acupuncturist inserts needles into different points depending on the illness or complaint.[/b]
Dim mak evolved from this theory and different points are attacked to cause different effects. According to the ancient theory behind dim mak, attacking the points disrupts the flow of energy, which results in illness or death.
There is no questioning the effectiveness of dim mak. Anyone who has ever been struck hard on a dim mak point or witnessed a pressure point knockout can attest to dim mak’s effectiveness. However, there are many who question the ancient explanation of dim mak’s effects. Although the previously mentioned theory has been in existence for centuries, modern medical science can provide a new scientific explanation for dim mak’s effects. Almost all of the points are located in areas where the one can attack a vulnerable portion of a nerve. In fact, many of the points can be linked neurologically to the internal organs that they are believed to affect. Consequently, attacking the nervous system can disrupt many of the body’s functions resulting in illness or death
JD
Example
Striking the CV 14 point can cause increased parasympathetic stimulation leading to knockout or cardiac arrest, involuntary contraction of the diaphragm and abdominal muscles leading to breathing difficulty, and damage to the left lobe of the liver, the pancreas, and the lower portion of the stomach.
Sudden stimulation of the celiac plexus, which is located under the CV 14 point, can cause severe pain that the brain interprets as coming from the internal organs. The result is a sudden spasm of the diaphragm and abdominal muscles, which cause a person to feel like they cannot breathe.
Because the left lobe of the liver, the pancreas, and part of the stomach are located under the CV14 point, they can be directly damaged by a very forceful blow to this point. When these organs are damaged, the pain is sensed by sympathetic nerves that are connected to a relay area called the celiac plexus. The pain is then transmitted to the spinal cord and brain. Thus, when the celiac plexus is directly stimulated by a blow to this area, it can cause intense pain that mimics damage to the pancreas, left lobe of liver, or the lower part of the stomach. Thus, the neurological connections of the celiac plexus explain why direct stimulation of the CV14 point can fool the brain into thinking that the internal organs are being damaged.
Blows to the CV 14 point have also been associated with sudden death. This can be explained by the fact that severe pain in the abdominal organs can cause vasovagal syncope (fainting caused by low blood pressure secondary to a low heart rate and dilated blood vessels). When the celiac plexus is struck with sufficient force, the simulated pain in the abdominal organs can cause profound stimulation of the parasympathetic nervous system via the vagus nerve and cause cardiac arrest. This sort of sudden death has been reported to occur during accidents, assaults, and even martial arts practice. Less intense stimulation can cause a dull, poorly defined pain, difficulty breathing, and/or a knockout (vasovagal syncope).
[B]Although many have experienced the severe pain and breathing difficulty associated with an unintentional blow to this area, many have also noticed that a deliberate strike often has little effect. This is explained by the fact that the celiac plexus is located beneath the left lobe of the liver, the pancreas, and part of the stomach, which can partially cushion a blow and the abdominal muscles, which can absorb the impact of a blow when contracted.
When a blow to this area occurs by surprise, the force is directly transmitted to the celiac plexus because the abdominal muscles are relaxed. However, when a blow is delivered to a well conditioned individual who is expecting it, the abdominal muscles tighten and protect the internal organs. The blow may still hurt but it will not have the same effect.[/B]
Because of the anatomy of this area, an impulse type of blow can be very effective at stimulating the celiac plexus. The liver and pancreas have a large fluid content, which can transmit a wave of force. Since the relatively hard spine is located behind the celiac plexus, the force is concentrated on the celiac plexus. The final effect is like a wave hitting a rock.
Thus, a quick snapping type of blow can cause a impulse wave to travel through the liver and pancreas and stimulate the celiac plexus. Interestingly, when the abdominal muscles are contracted, they actually facilitate this effect. The rigid abdominal muscles transmit the impulse wave like a tightened guitar string transmits a sound wave.
This concept and the other [B]vibrating palm targets [/B]will be further explained in an upcoming ebook on vibrating palm techniques and targets.
JD
Q & A
Hee is a good article I found explaining some comon questions about Dim Mak
[b] Q & A [/b]
This section will continue to be updated as new questions arise in other sections.
Q: Dear Dr. Kelly, Is it true that by hitting someone in a .15 millisecond period can cause their heart to stop and the person to die? When has this happened?
A: Yes it is true that striking the chest can cause cardiac arrest. This has been documented in medical literature for over 120 years. This phenomenon is called commotio cordis and it is discussed in great detail in my ebook, The Dim Mak Medical Guide as well as my book, Death Touch The Science Behind the Legend of Dim Mak. In addition, there is a good online article concerning this phenomenon at http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa033102a.htm. Although the answer is complex, I will give you a brief explanation. Commotio cordis can occur with a relatively mild chest blow if a certain location is attacked during a specific period of the cardiac cycle. The often-quoted .15 ms is not quite accurate because if the blow occurs during another specific period, a different type of cardiac arrest can occur. It is just not ventricular fibrillation. In addition, the timing of this vulnerable period can be altered by using dim mak points to manipulate the autonomic nervous system. The actual mechanism is believed to involve mechano-electric feedback and disruption of Na channels.
Q: Dear Dr. Kelly, I would be very interested to hear any thoughts you might have about “Iron Shirt” or “Golden Bell Cover” training
A: Here are my off the cuff thoughts on iron shirt training. First, most of the dim mak points work by causing pain in the nervous system. Interestingly, the body has a built in mechanism for blocking pain. Medical science has found that stimulating certain areas of spinal cord can actually block the perception of pain. In fact, these pathways are sometimes artificially stimulated to help patients with chronic pain. Not surprisingly, there are many individuals who have learned to consciously block pain by activating these descending spinal pathways. The neurology of this complex but in a nutshell, the body has a mechanism which can be controlled consciously to block pain, which I think is intimately involved in iron shirt training. I actually discuss this extensively in my book.
In addition, many pressure point knockouts are actually vasovagal syncopal episodes (fainting due to a sudden drop in blood pressure and cerebral vasoconstriction). Once again the neurology is complex but put very simply, these points stimulate an area of the brain called the nucleus tractus solitarii, which then causes a sudden drop in blood pressure and syncope (fainting). It is well known that emotions or fear can also cause this type of fainting. Interestingly, this phenomenon works through the same area of the brain: the nucleus tractus solitarii. Thus, these psychologically induced fainting episodes can be explained by the fact that the cortex (the conscious thinking part of the brain) is directly connected to, and can stimulate, the nucleus tractus solitarii. This connection also explains why some people can consciously block a pressure point knockout. However, this only works if the person can anticipate when and where they will be struck.
The third concept that comes to mind involves research concerning the body’s ability to absorb impacts. Medical science has found that muscle contraction can actually decrease the trauma from a blunt impact and thereby decrease the likelihood of injury. As many martial artists intuitively know, tightening up just before receiving a blow substantially increases ones ability to absorb an impact. The reason why I mention this is because in the photos on the web page in question, the individuals were obviously contracting muscles at the point of impact. Even the strikes to the throat show very strong contraction of the platysma, sterncleidomastoid, and strap muscles.
Thus, I believe that iron shirt training involves learning to use the body’s built in pain blocking mechanism, learning to consciously block the effects of nucleus tractus solitarii stimulation, and training the musculoskeletal system to contract just before impact.
Q: Dear Dr Kelly, When you a strike a pressure point, there is bound to be some rupture or clot on the nerve fibers/ blood vessel etc., leading to unconsciousness state. Though you revive the person, many doctors state that the long-term effects are not known. What is your comment?
A: Hello, It is good to hear from you. It really depends on what point was struck. Some of the points affect blood vessels and nerves, other points affect just nerves. If the point affected a blood vessel, a strike could tear the intima of the vessel leading to artherosclerosis or clot formation. If the clot migrated in the blood stream it would then become an embolus which could lead to severe injuries. As for the long-term effects of repeatedly striking the exposed portions of the nerves, there is little medical research on this as this is not a common occurrence for most people.
Q: Dr Kelly, Do you see a role in concussion of the medulla oblongata (counter coup) in knockouts? For example, Jokl theorized that the chin knockout and the knockout to the GB 20s were from the energy being transferred through the skull and causing the brain stem to rebound in the skull (This also can explain arm knockouts made popular by Dillman and Oyata). Is his stuff outdated? It seems in your book that you are suggesting (from cursory reading) knockout from the chin and GB 20s more from attacking the cranial nerves and that stimulating the brain.
A: Any strong blow to the head can cause a concussion and/or coup/counter coup injury. Just like medical science has come a long way since the Qing dynasty, it has also come a long way since the 1940’s. Pain in the trigeminal, vagus, facial, glossopharyngeal, carotid sinus, and the occipital nerves has been found to cause vasovagal syncope (i.e. fainting). This is a much more plausible explanation because many of the knockouts using dim mak/pressure points do not involve enough force to injure the medulla oblongata or are too far away from the medulla oblongata.
Q & A Part Ii
Q: Dr. Kelly, you state that striking the points is dangerous and that one should never play around with them but then you show knockouts on your site. This seems like a contradiction.
A: The techniques illustrated on the clips are not full knockouts. I only demonstrate them to answer the critics who claim that only the individuals who are unable to cause the knockouts call them dangerous. I wish it were different, but there are too many people showing KO clips and recklessly striking the points. Consequently, there are many martial artists who think that only those who can perform pressure point knockouts know what they are talking about.
Q: Where does Dim Mak come from?
A: To understand this, one needs to know a little about the history of dim mak. According to legend, dim mak originated with a man named Zhang Sanfeng who was both a martial artist and an acupuncturist. Zhang Sanfeng developed a system of attacking the points after researching the points that were deemed too dangerous to use in acupuncture. Folklore has it that he practiced and experimented on prisoners in order to find the most effective points and combinations. He then combined his most effective techniques into a set of movements, which later became known as Tai Chi, which is believed by some to have influenced many different styles of martial arts.
Additionally, some believe that Zhang Sanfeng was actually a student of a man named Feng Yiyuan. Ancient acupuncturists had a martial art that consisted of striking certain points that were found to be dangerous when they were needled. These points were named the forbidden points and the ancient acupuncturists would strike these points with fans and needles as a means of self defense. In another theory on dim mak's origin, Feng Yiyuan is believed to have created a martial art that concentrated on attacking thirty-six of the forbidden acupuncture points. Feng Yiyuan's students increased the number of points to seventy-two and later, to one-hundred-eight. Yiyuan's system is believed to have migrated to the Southern Shaolin Temple where it became integrated into many different martial arts. This theory explains why so many of the traditional martial arts have a component of dim mak.
Q: So what is the link between dim mak and karate?
The answer to this question can be found in an ancient manuscript called the Bubishi. This ancient text is considered to be the oldest known document on Okinawan karate. Many of the most famous karate masters including Funakoshi, Miyagi, Itosu, and Chibana, had hand written copies of this text. The Bubishi is filled with references to dim mak and the points. There are even sections on the delayed death touch and the seven forbidden points. Many believe that the dim mak techniques discussed in the Bubishi are actually hidden in the traditional Okinawan katas. Thus, the Bubishi contains the hidden link between dim mak and modern karate. Given the fact that karate migrated from Okinawa to Japan, it is clear that this includes both Okinawan and Japanese Karate.
Q: How can I learn Dim Mak?
A: The real key to learning dim mak is to find the dim mak techniques hidden within the traditional martial arts. However, this can be difficult because many of the original katas have been modified. For example, Funakoshi changed some of the Okinawan karate katas when he introduced them to Japan. In his books, he states that he did this to make the katas easier for the Japanese to learn. Perhaps this was also done to encrypt the secrets of kata. Unfortunately, many of his changes blunt the dim mak applications of kata or make them harder to find. Funakoshi even states in his books that his kata changes were not for combat, but for aesthetics. Additionally, Funakoshi did not teach the dim mak applications of the katas. Anku Itosu was another Okinawan master who created a simpler form of Okinawan karate. He made variations in the katas so that they could be safely taught to school children. This modified version then developed into one of the most popular karate styles in Okinawa. Fortunately, these changes were minor and mostly involved alterations in the striking hand to make it difficult for children to hit the points.
It is my belief that the Okinawan Shorin Ryu katas contain many of the original dim mak techniques. In addition, Erle Montaigue teaches the original dim mak version of tai chi. Thus, as a starting point, one can study one of the traditional Okinawan karate styles or kung fu styles like tai chi from a teacher who knows the dim mak applications. The problem is finding instructors who really know the dim mak that is contained within their system.
Q: What is your background in the martial arts (styles and teachers)?
A: I started my martial arts training at the age of 6 when I enrolled in Koeikan karate classes. Then during high school, I became totally engrossed in scholastic wrestling. At the age of 17, I resumed my karate training but this time it was in Okinawin Shorin Ryu, which I have been training in for over 17 years. I received my shodan in 1987 and nidan in 1988. I have also studied Aikido and Tang Soo Do.
Q: If your background is in Karate, why do you talk about the medical science behind dim mak instead of kyushojitsu?
A: I guess most people are more comfortable using the term kyushojitsu for the use of pressure points in the karate styles. However, I prefer to use dim mak for the following reasons. First, in the Bubishi, which is an old karate text passed from teacher to student in Okinawa for hundreds of years, attacking the points is referred to as dim mak. Second, I believe that attacking the points in Okinawan karate stems from dim mak because karate was influenced by the Chinese martial arts. Third, I believe the terms dim mak and and kyushojitsu are just different names for the same thing because both refer to methods of attacking the points. I use the term dim mak as a sort of traditionalist to give credit to the original version of the art. Does it really matter what we call the methods of attacking the points?
Q: So how did you learn dim mak and come to write a book about it?
A: Just after I earned my shodan, I came across a book that really peaked my interest in the subject. The book was called Pressure Points for Karate, Jujitsu, and Atemi Waza by Bruce Tegner. This book really impressed me because it gave a somewhat modern explanation of pressure points and dim mak. Additionally, in my quest for knowledge, I trained in shiatsu, which helped tremendously. In my early experiments, I found attacking the points to be very effective, but I was using the points in a very simplistic manner. After a short period of time, Dillman came out with his pressure point teachings. I attended his seminars and purchased a number of his videos. I found his teachings very useful and my pressure point studies were taken to a whole new level. However, I continued my search for more information. I studied everything that I could find on pressure points and came across Erle Montaigue’s books and videos. I was very impressed by Erle because he seemed to be teaching the points for the benefit of the martial arts and not for commercial reasons. His teachings seemed to fill many of the voids in my knowledge. My training and skills continued to progress and I became much more comfortable with using the points. During this time period, I also earned a degree in biology, which seemed to point my pressure point studies in a more scientific direction. By the time I started medical school, I had developed an extensive library of books and videos and was trying to learn all I could from any source. To my surprise, I found that many of my medical school courses, especially gross anatomy, osteopathic medicine, and human physiology, provided insight into possible medical explanations for dim mak. Subsequently, all of my spare time during medical school was spent researching dim mak, the points, and medical science. By the time I reached my fourth year, I had accumulated a great deal of medical research, which allowed me to find more effective ways to combine and use the points as well as modern medical explanations for their effects. I realized that that there was an incredible void in the martial arts and that a new approach to the points based on medical science would have a profound effect on the validity of using the points. Thus, Death Touch: The Science Behind The Legend of Dim Mak was born.
JD