Bandit…
Some points are going to be dangerous no matter what…others depends on the persons constitution. Points like H1 or CV1 are going to work regardless.
While we’re on the subject.
Did anyone see the episode of Ripley’s Believe it or Not where Erle Montaigue dim mak’s a bunch of people? They had electrodes hooked up to them that showed their hearts going into fibrillation or something…definitely an abnormal rhythm. I was just curious if anyone had any alternative explanations for this. Being scientifically minded, I’m open to the possibility of it being legit, but I could explain it as purely psychological if it weren’t for that physiological response.
Any ideas?
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure
Yes, it’s called pain.
Fu-Pow
“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”
-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting
please elaborate. pain alone is an insufficient explanation.
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure
hmm…
yes, dingo, i’ve also heard about those parts of qinna in yang taijiquan.
i found some stuff on peter lim’s site. the most immediately relevant information is below, but i would highly recommend his site: http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/
"One of the most esoteric of these skills, which should not actually be considered esoteric since it is simply the attacking of the body’s vital points is accupoint striking or ‘Dian Xue’. Accupoint striking involves striking or grasping accupoints to cause injury, incapacitation or death. Unlike external accupoint striking, the opponent’s own momentum and body mass is utilised to contribute to the power of the strike with minimum exertion from the exponent.
Bone Locking is also found in external martial arts. The idea is to restrain the opponent with joint locks. In Yang Tai Chi Bone Locking the opponent’s body mass and momentum are the major motive forces, once so restrained, the opponent can be dealt with in an appropriate manner.
Bone Hitting is a quite different, this involves actually breaking of the bones. No matter how soft and supple a person is, the bones will always be hard and substantial. Bone Hitting utilises knowledge of the range of motion of the joints, the connection between the different bones in the body to break them and so incapacitate the opponent. Once again the opponent’s mass and momentum are used to get them into the appropriate position where this skill can then be applied.
Sinew Splitting is akin to causing sprains and muscle tears deliberately. The mass and and momentum of the opponent again being the main motive forces. The musculature is specifically targeted and a good knowledge of the musculature, origins and insertions of muscles and tendons is necessary to apply this skill effectively.
Blocking and controlling blood flow pressure points can cause incapacitation by causing the opponent to faint or loose the use of one of his limbs due to inadequate blood flow. This is different from accupoint striking. Here the junctures of major and important blood vessels are targeted. As in typical fashion, the opponent’s own mass and momentum are the primary motive forces causing him to be his own undoing.
Psychological attacks are also an advanced skills, playing on the emotions and psyche of the opponent. Both Yang Pan Hou and Yang Shao Hou were recorded to have changes in facial expression and emotion when doing the form as well as shouting and roaring at the appropriate moments. These serve to cause fear, shock and indecision in the opponent."
http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/yshsmfr.htm
hope this helped out. if it makes any difference, didn’t erle learn his taijiquan from the same guy as he learned his wudang from?
Daniel - Mike Patterson talks about dim mak applications on the video clips he has put up on his website www.hsing-i.com . I know of others, but that’s one you can verify easily. He has no relationship to Mr. Montaigue.
Hmmm
Interesting, I’ve watched all mike pattersons clips, and I have not seen him discuss such a thing. Can you tell me specifically which one?
What I’m picking up is simply that I have a different definition of dian xue/dim mak than many people. For example, I might punch someone in a pressure point, but I consider the effects to be purely physical. ((Example, there is a point very near the heart that you can hit an cause the heart to lose it’s rhythm, and potentially go into shock.)) I don’t consider this to be dian xue though many people would. I don’t consider bone breaking to be dian xue, either. Perhaps in my conversation with people, they felt they were discussing dian xue and I simply did not.
Merciless is Mercy.
Hi Daniel,
what exactly did you mean by “dian xue”?
Do you mean “accupoint striking”? Or “vital point striking”? Bone hitting might be excluded, but the skull is a bone with strong parts and weak parts. Anyway, do you mean that the result would be death --particularly delayed? or injury? IMHO, wildest and most controversial claim that we’ve heard would be something like this. A 350lb wrestler gets mad at an 85 year old martial artist. The wrestler attacks with furious blows. But the old man just steps aside and touches his attacker lightly on some part of the body. Somehow, the conflict ends; the wrestler goes home and begins to cough up blood. In 12 hours, he can not stand, 24 hours later, he’s gone. So, the questions are: where was the point the old man touched? was it specific for that wrestler at that time of day? would it change in another part of the day? Etc., etc.? I’m not arguing that it is impossible. I just don’t know the extent of what is possible.
Respects,
Esteban
estaban
in your last post you stated about the wrestler guy. as I said before my qi-goong teacheris very very high level and heals people all over the world the first qestion she asks is what time did your injury happen, then what year and what time were you born. Two very important elements in her diagnosis. She then with many hunders of people makes them bounce shake and roll around on the floor, with out their knowledge. She has pointed to one arm on a car accident victim while his back was to her and only that arm began to shake. So again she can control your entire being with the swip of her hand, as if they were pupett’s on a string. So it is totally possible to control anonther’s movements,bodily functions chi, or even health…it just depends if you are there to heal them or hurt them. This is why so many masters of this level decide not to teach this skill, with it comes great responsibility, humbleness and indefinate love for others…
Hi Earth Dragon,
I am not doubting anyone’s ability, or the possibilities. I just wanted to be clear on what we were talking about. I’m not sure that everyone means the same thing when they say “dian xue.” Some might believe it’s a myth: some believe it’s the center of their art: some don’t think it matters one way or the other. Actually, I think you said something very important. From what I have heard, any success at all on the type of thing you are talking about requires far more training in healing and medicine than in fighting. It’s a skill that comes as a result of knowing the human body, lots of them, very well. Unlike the harmful side, it can be practiced often. And, the practitioner should always be able to reverse the effects, on himself and on others. That’s why some people complain about publishing specific information about “vital points,” etc. OTOH, it’s soo precise and compicated that, in most cases, a person will just punch the guy in the nose. It’s more socially acceptable 
--but still assault and battery.
Best,
Esteban
Hi Daniel. I’m away from home and thus wonderful high speed connections that permit me to scroll through Mr. Patterson’s clips. If I haven’t responded to this in a week, I’ve forgotten, so give the thread a bump up to remind me.
I wasn’t aware that the implied explanation/mechanism for the points effects was the key point in this conversation, but rather only their usage. For being a martial artist, does it matter what you use to make your body understand something? If two people do the same with different ideas of how it works, they’re still doing the same. Personally, I don’t think of how it works at all. For being a scientist, that’s different. But none of these men claim to be scientists!
Accupoint
I was thinking of accupoint striking. That is to say, using pressure along the meridians, etc, along the lines of the way an accupuncurist treats their patients.
Joint, bone and even nerve point manipulations do not qualify in my mind.
As for the wrestler story, that is exactly part of my point. The internal–skilled–stylists I know who can cause injury at any point on that level, as a result of their internal skill. It requires no particular striking point.
As for the accupuncturist, this again is an example of internal skill, not point attacks. I know an individual with the same sort of ability. This is not a result of simple accupoints.
[This message was edited by Daniel Madar on 08-10-01 at 02:07 PM.]
Hi Daniel; Re: Mr. Patterson’s mpegs:
In ‘Hsing-I Horse Application #2’ @ 00:20: “Striking into the bottom points, grasping large intestine 9, 10… grasping heart 3 on the other side of the arm…”
In 'Liou He Ba Fah - First Section Application" @ 02:11: “[something] point or large intestine 18, [something] point…” (sorry, don’t know my points, and don’t want to embarrass myself trying to spell what he says phonetically)
cool
Thanks, I was actually too lazy to go through them on my own.
Merciless is Mercy.