I agree that they are not the same thing. It was UWC that chose to link them. I cannot comment on the evolution of WC. It is one of the styles my Sifu teaches and I KNOW that he has made modifications to a few of the forms he teaches in order to repair what he saw as problems with some of them. My sifu is hardly the only bright martial artist produced by Hong Kong in the last half a century so I imagine others have done the same. Assuming that they don’t all talk to one another their personal variations (that they then teach) would be different.
All I have been saying is that since people are essentially the same physically now that they were 500 years ago (this IS true) their physical capabilities are also probably about the same they were 500 years ago. What I am denying is not evolution (which I adhere to rather strongly) but simply the assumption of the inevitable progress of ‘man’ in all endeavors. That is a mistake almost identical to the assumption that there was a golden age of now-lost knowlege in the distant past.
Or: people are people so how could it be
that people think the anciens differed awfully?
I understand where you’re coming from Simon, but I’m not sure that your argument really stands.
Evolution provided modern humans with a certain potential. It is by no means certain that we have yet attained the full measure of that potential… thus applying the genetic card to “eyeblink” timescales (in an evolutionary sense) may not be most appropriate.
I DO see where you’re going, just don’t agree with you.
If we can compare combat skills loosely with physical prowess - look at the revolutions in Olympic records over the past century alone. I’m willing to bet that a martial artist, trained in the modern era with appropriately pragmatic methods, would kick the ass of an older era warrior.
CAVEAT: This is in no way validating most of the current training methods though. They tend to suck, due to the tendency of most modern people to avoid discomfort as if it were a smelly hobo coated in cr@p looking for a cuddle.
Thank you I was just waiting for someone to bring up Olympic records!
You see I had already thought out that particular angle before I phrased my original argument. To be honest - records mean nothing about our actual Potential to perform. The Olympics have hardly existed for more than 100 years in the modern context. Considering that the archaic Greek Olympics were extinct for a couple of millenia they really don’t matter for addressing performance improvement in sport.
Lets be honest, people who get drawn to sports at a high level are competitive. If you set a record in front of a competitive person they will try to best it if they believe they can. Why have Olympic records improved so much over tha last 100 years? It’s because we keep better records now. Had there been a system in place for the storage and dissemination of mass information over great distances five hunderd years ago we would have probably seen a simmilar seemingly meteoric rise in performance standards. The fact that we do not does not mean that nobody was that good then, just that they were not recorded performing. Let’s face it accounts of Kung Fu skill from back in the day are often half fiction - “geko” techniques that allowed the MAist to climb walls and techniques to make the MAist paper thin so that when stabbed with their back to a wall they would not suffer any serious injury appear in ancient martial arts accounts. I think any rational person would consider such accounts as exaggerations at best. However I have never come across a doccument talking about the weakness of antique martial arts as practiced in antiquity.
In the absence of any proof that ancient fighters were worse than modern ones I have do discount the argument the same way I discount the stories of the supernatural powers of the ancients. What a concept - a person who neither believes in atlantis nor in the idea that cars and computers make us superior to the people of the last centuries.
thus applying the genetic card to “eyeblink” timescales (in an evolutionary sense) may not be most appropriate.
Oh and I agree that it is inappropriate to apply evolution to this situation because it is too short a period, please see above my post that refers to “punctuated equilibrium”.
I feel I can relate now to what your are saying (at least in some sense.)
I think a painful example of this might be that mankind as a whole still appears to be relatively “unevolved” psychologically, -continuing to have little understanding of it’s own; mechanics of thought, emotions, motives, etc. (e.g. -Many people on the planet; would still like to burn “non-believers” / “infidels” at the stake, are ready to go to war at the drop of a hat, and tend to only consider input & opinions of others if they’re reasonably sure that they are closely aligned with their own.)
Hi, Joy, Kathy, and the many others still championing the cause of reason
With regard to the e-book, the first draft was completed about a year ago, but every few weeks I would add or amend something. To cut a long story short, a student who is a professional publisher, has offered to do the production. He is on a business trip to the USA and Europe and will be back in early April, when we will get moving.
By the way, as a matter of interest, we have a new, skilful student who trained intensively as a private student of a senior disciple of Lawrence Lee in Sydney. Lawrence has a strong Wing Chun base, is one of the longest established Kung Fu teachers in Australia, and for the past 9 years or so has been training Kostya Zyuu (Sp?) in iron palm, in view of the latter’s wrist problems…talk about “six degrees of separation”
“All I have been saying is that since people are essentially the same physically now that they were 500 years ago (this IS true) their physical capabilities are also probably about the same they were 500 years ago.” (SimonM)
MORE ABSURDITY…
It’s about what’s going on in their MINDS…which is in control of the body. The body, and and the energy, (both physical muscular and internal chi)…these things are instruments that the MIND uses.
And the MIND of man has evolved and progressed over the last 500 years…so yes…it is reasonable to assume that today’s fighters are more efficient than fighters from 500 hundred years ago…because the MIND of man has evolved - which therefore leads to progress.
So therefore perhaps we can can come back to the thesis of this thread ??? Instead of following an attempted hi-jacking in order to fulfill an agenda that wants to bury the question of today’s wing chun efficiency…(and the efficiency that many wing chun people today may or may not be demonstrating in their training methods, fighting strategies, and techniques).
Rolf,
You mean a real boxer/fighter like Kostya is learning a ancient art form? Wait until Terence hears about this, it will rock his world. I thought boxers were to tough to ever need Iron Palm. LoL…
Kostya has had his share of injuries including a hand related problem. He has stated that he has used iron palm dit da jow on his hands. He is one tough cookie.
A student of mine had some hand problems- he is a superb guitarist and musician…
with light careful iron palm work and jow- his ligaments became strong again without losing flexibility.
If we need to train our solders that we are going to ship to Iraq, do you think our soldiers would prefer “Wing Chuan” or “MMA”?
Beside their heavy armor, our soldier’s life is too valuable and cannot afford to go down to the ground with Iraq guys. I don’t think MMA could even be a valid choice. Has time changed? Soldiers still wear heavy armor and try to kill as many enemies as possible in today’s battle ground. Hit and run are still the best strategy in today’s battle field.
I’m sure that Chinese soldier would love to train in MMA. Any country that try to have war against China will soon run out of their soldiers.
Soon or later people will not be satisfy on TV for just one against one cage fight. You will then see cage fight that will envolve into
One against multiple (ground fight will start to envolve).
Group fight (anybody can figh anybody and only one person is allowed to leave that cage alive).
Dagger against dagger (the more blood shaded, the better the TV rating).
Stick against stick (the more skull cracked, the better the TV rating).
Any weapon go (fighters are allow to bring his own designed “cold weapon”).
At that time people will say that MMA and BJJ are obsolete and out-moded.
—First off, if you are going to post in a Wing Chun forum, shouldn’t you learn how to spell it? :rolleyes: I hate to burst your bubble, but many units in the US Army do train in a variation of BJJ. On “today’s battle ground” much of the fighting is done in an urban setting going house to house. It has been recognized that modern weapons make extensive hand-to-hand fighting unnecessary even in that situation. Even at close range the soldier most often still has his weapon at hand. That is why many units have gone to the shorter, more compact version of the M16. But…if a soldier finds himself on the ground in a situation where he has to fight for his life he very likely has lost his weapon in the process of getting blown or knocked to the ground! Granted, grappling with LBE and a flak vest still on is not ideal, but not impossible!
If you are interested in the “evolution” of the fighting arts, look at how wwestern fencing has developed. It’s easier because much of it has been documented in various books for hundreds of years. You can see technical elements being added, theoretical elements being added, etc. as time goes by. Or, spend a little time looking into the history of boxing and you’ll see that not that long ago (a 100 years or so), there was no bob-and-weave or slipping or peek-a-boo, that the jab was a very different sort of punch, the “stance” has changed, etc. All these technical elements were discovered and adopted to answer some question or give some fighter an edge, and then they begin to be adopted by others who think it was a good idea. Hell, it’s the same in basketball – it’s not the same game 50 years ago. BJJ has changed, with a great many new technical elements, in just 20 years.
And if you want a great laugh, look at the tai ji-white crane “masters” fight from the 1920s (it’s floating around somewhere on the 'net). Try and tell me that this is good fighting by today’s standards. yet, this fight was hailed in both sides camps as a top-notch demonstration. And they were crap. This is what I think most of the “masters” from the past were like – at the very best simply ‘good’ for their day, and in many cases more “fish story” than truth.
What if our soldiers run out of ammo and those Iraq women and kids run over with their garden and farm tools? Do our soldiers need to use their M16 as stick and crack some skulls? Would tradition weapon training come in handy? Would those Iraq women and kids attack with empty hands? So many falling bricks and building material from the destroyed building can be used.
Clearly you have not ever taken an intro-anthropology course UWC. I will repeat: THERE HAS BEEN NO SIGNIFICANT GENETIC CHANGESD TO THE HUMAN SPECIES IN THE LAST SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS since the mind is NOTHING more than an organ that means it too is structurally identical to how it was hundreds of years ago. Technological progress DOES NOT EQUAL EVOLUTION!!! And don’t play the hijack card. I replied with a valid answer to KF’s initial post and you chose to challenge it.
Granted, grappling with LBE and a flak vest still on is not ideal, but not impossible!
A predecessor of jiu jitsu called kumiuchi was developed in c. 12th century Japn which taught throws and immobilisations with weapons for use against armoured opponents, the rationale being that withour controlling the opponent first, it was difficult to drive a weapon into the *****s in the armour.
From memeory when a US army PT guy was asked about the BJJ training for H2H was it was mor eabout developing a tolerance for and familiarity with close quarter engagement rather than shooting a double leg on and armbarring Osama Bin Laden.
The whole argument about soldiers in Iraq was a straw man in any case.
The arumment about evolution/progress is just semantics. In common use outside of anthropology and biology nerd circles, the two terms are used interchangeably in common usage.
Fair enough but in the last 400 years Boxing has also made Kicking, Throwing and a variety of “dirty” techniques illegal. And yes the stance has changed from the 1800’s but look at the very occasional 1700s boxing manual picture and you will see that they were using stances not that different from those used by modern MMA fighters.
As for the white crane master vids from the '20s I have heard of them but as I have said many times before I can not view videos at work and I almost never go on forums unless I am at work. That being said what happened in the 1920’s in one set of videos is not indicitave of all of history. As a counter example I believe that Chan Tai San was active in that period as was Yip Man (I think). Lam Si Wing had been alive not too long ago in the 1920’s and even in his eighties he demonstrated the Tiger and Crane better than most people I have seen in the modern period. That would tend to support my hypothesis that there have always been both good and bad martial artists.
(And a caveat to that - there have always been people who claim to be masters and who should not.)
“THERE HAS BEEN NO SIGNIFICANT GENETIC CHANGES TO THE HUMAN SPECIES IN THE LAST SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS since the mind is NOTHING more than an organ…” (SimonM)
YOUR TOTALLY MATERIALISTIC view of life is so far below the true nature of things - and so attached to a stubbornly resistant and erroneous set of assumptions…that I won’t even waste my time debating it any further with you, Simon.
But more than that…I think there’s something else at play here with you - regarding the discussion on this thread.
What is is about the subject matter that puts you into such denial?
You have a lot invested in the “old ways”?
Spent many years perhaps learning something that would be too painful now to have to admit is not very efficient by today’s standards?
Or perhaps you’re running a McDojo operation of some sort?
In any event - I’m through arguing these points with you.
You accuse me of attachment to “old ways” and then use mysticism as your argument against a “materialistic” view of human development. Rather hypocritical.
What is is about the subject matter that puts you into such denial?
I am in no denial. I simply don’t believe that the development of modern technology is the result of or the cause of any significant change to the nature of human kind. I also KNOW that knowlege has been both gained and lost many times by many cultures. Just because something was one way once does not mean that those conditions always applied. So there was some bad Kung Fu in the '20s and some foolish Boxing in the 1800’s. There was also some good Kung Fu in the turn of the 20th century and some downright scary Boxing in the 1600’s. You are so attached to the illusion that we live in a golden age of technology now that you are the one displaying signs of denial. After all it is you who keeps using invalid arguments such as “you hijacked this thread” (which I did not) or “you must be running a McDojo” (which I most certainly am not since if you look at my history of posts I have NEVER ONCE claimed to be a Sifu). These personal attacks have nothing to do with Knifefighter’s original question. But nice try.
Spent many years perhaps learning something that would be too painful now to have to admit is not very efficient by today’s standards?
Because I think that the principles of WC are valid? I’m surprised considering you are the one who puts the name of the style right in your nick! I just used my name.
Or perhaps you’re running a McDojo operation of some sort?
I already addressed this a little but I think it deserves a reiteration. I am not running any school. I have never run any school. I am not a Sifu. I am a Kung Fu student with a passion for all aspects of the martial arts - including it’s history. I also am a Sociologist with a strong grounding in the social sciences such as Anthropology and humanities such as Philosophy. And yes, as you suggested before much of my academic work is based on Dialectical Materialism as set out by Hegel and expanded on by Marx. Unsurprising for a socialist with a Sociology degree. Quite frankly it is frequently the most logical framework for dispassionately addressing human history. Please feel free to discuss your methodology for determining that the human mind is somehow superior to how it was in the past, I would be fascinated to hear it.
In any event - I’m through arguing these points with you.
There are much better things for me to do.
Well I guess I won’t be hearing your marvelous hypothesis then. Pity.
Whilst Kostya remains primarily an outstanding western boxer, it would be wrong, imo, to assume that his association with Lawrence Lee, over a nine year period, has been limited to iron palm training to overcome weaknesses in the wrists.
Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence’s kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko’d or tko’d his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.
I still recall my students, many years ago, asking me as I arrived whether I had seen this new Russian born boxer in the news who fought in a very “aggressive and direct, Wing Chun like style”.
My point is that Wing Chun concepts AND basic punching can be incorporated successfully into western boxing. This is happening right now here in WA, although still in the developmental stages. It would take too long to explain it all, but it will all become clearer in the next 12 months, as this form of hybrid boxing becomes better known.
Common sense would suggest that there have been exchanges of ideas and techniques. I can give you two actual examples. I have a great colour photo of Lawrence readying Kostya as he is about to deliver a WC 1" punch to a cloth covered frying pan (!) supported by a book, held by a bemused looking third party, in what looks like Lawrence’s kitchen. Also, in his last fight when he ko’d or tko’d his American opponent in a return match, Kostya included in his finishing punches a technique that Lawrence had taught him and that Lawrence was quite excited about.
((Rolf- Completely understood. If I had the money I would also open a boxing training gym for inner city youth (apart from the wing chun). Saw a piece of property in downtown Phoenix- but got second financially conservative thoughts. Now that property is gone with the price driven up by nearby university related development. With gloves at very very close quarters I can show (and sometimes do) the difference between standard boxing punches and wing chun type of punches.
I sat ring side at both of Kostya’s fights here in Phoenix separated by several years.(Chavez in the earlier fight and Shamabala Mitchell in the last one) Even though he is older - in his last fight against a very well conditioned and accomplished opponent (Mitchell)- Kostyas straight punches were more effective than mitchell’s hooks. And, when he devatstatingly downed Mitchell- it was one of those short punches that he has increasingly developed. He will need them if he meets with Zab Judah again. In their last fight Kostya went down first but got up… later he dropped Judah… the fight was stopped controversially with Judah trying to get up. Judah is faster than Kostya and a southpaw but Judah has a bit of a glass jaw. Kostya now has experience against south paws and hus more squared up stance and stratight and the devlopment of short power should serve him well.
In both his fights here- there were both Australian and Russian flags being furled around- and there wasa little disturbace in one part of the audience with the Russian flag-- given the rising nationalism and the macho crowd around here. A hockey game did break out briefly. Tyson was at ring side too holding court but behaving.. In his prime he too had short effective wc likebut not wc -punches- but his legs fail him these days in closing with his little shuffle steps- specially aginst people much larger than him. He still has his hand power though.
Regards.
