Obsolete and out-moded?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Is WCK outmoded or obsolete? Either it’s method, training, or both? I’ve spoken with some well-respected MMA/NHB trainers/fighters and they have suggested that the “traditional arts”, including WCK, may have been good for their day but that wasn’t because they were that good (to begin with), just that the prevailing performance levels were so low. In other words, they worked because everyone was so bad!

For example, the Shaolin monks weren’t, and aren’t, the zenith of martial art ability; they were simply good for their time period. But as time passed, and methods and training methods improved – as martial arts evolved – those things became obsolete and outmoded.

Similarly, WCK may have been great by mid-1800, rural chinese standards (excellent for beating up untrained peasants) but just won’t hold up by today’s standards.

How do I refute their position?

2

I was talking to a snow boarder that said his sport was far better than baseball.
He said baseball was fine once upon a time, but it was outdated now.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff]Is WCK outmoded or obsolete? Either it’s method, training, or both? I’ve spoken with some well-respected MMA/NHB trainers/fighters and they have suggested that the …QUOTE]

I’m surprised you did not ask some swimmers!.. :rolleyes:

4

The way to refute their position - for anyone who really wants to know and for whomever has a desire to be the one to tell them - is to blast them. If you cannot, then the possibility remains that their position is valid.

The way to refute their premise - for anyone who really wants to know and for whomever has a desire to be the one to tell them - is to make a proper case that Ving Tsun was not designed to do the things they ask of it in their premise. If you cannot, then the possibility remains that their premise is valid, too.

Of course, you could always undercut their character and use this as a basis for an ad-hominem attack on the validity their arguments. If you cannot, then the possibility remains that more interesting things in the martial arts would be open for discussion amongst “well-respected MMA/NHB trainers/fighters” and yourself. :rolleyes:

:slight_smile:

5

Hello,

When I hear outdated or obsolete or not functional for todays times etc.!

I find this to be kind of funny but its my person feeling!

So! When someone asks me this I reply with these questions:

How much has the human body changed in the past 500 or more years?

How many different angles can someone attack you from? Has those angles changed in the past 500 or more years?

Typical answer for both is: AHHHH! No and Ahhhh No again!

Now! While arts have evloved and more types of well rounded fighters have been born I have yet to meet any honest Grappler or Reality fighter that believes in grappling in the street or going to the ground in the street unless its by accident or last resort! Rolling around on cement or concrete is brutal on the body. So, they end up using their M. Thai, Boxing, Kicking etc..

Wing Chun is designed or specializes in short bridge/close range fighting. Thats our specialty. For someone to hit us or kick us they must come into our range sooner or later. He who is better at what they are doing will win and thats the way of the world. For me, I dont have time to train like a beast so the time I do have I spend on WCK. I would rather be decent at one thing than mediocre at a bunch. If i am decent at one thing I have a better chance and thats all Kung Fu can really do for us is help our chances if we train right.

Nuff said!

Oh yeah! Why not go visit some of the older generation Grapplers or Jiu Jistu guys and see how they are doing. I dont know any of them that are not in bad condition or have regular pain. First priority for me is health and how this stuff effects my body. Once you know your body you then learn how to use it and I do not want to wake up in pain on a regular basis in my golden years.

Tom is correct tho! Perhaps you could have blasted them! Or better yet! Teach them how to swim! hehehehahaha Sorry! I couldnt resist! :stuck_out_tongue:

Regards,

6

Or some good liu he ba fa pracitioners-
water boxers- i dont know whether they need to getin to the water.

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How do I refute their position?

I don’t know, maybe by being a little less argumentative?

Tell them they may be right, and that you have been looking for a fight card with some untrained out of shape peasants from the Far East, and ask if they know any.

:smiley:

8

Similarly, WCK may have been great by mid-1800, rural chinese standards (excellent for beating up untrained peasants) but just won’t hold up by today’s standards.

Why are you assuming that traditional arts were empty hand. Ever think that what most of us traditional people practice is only part of weapons based arts? So it could be a non-argument.

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Don’t forget he asked some MMA/NHB guys! :wink:

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Terence,

Great idea!

May be you can take my Three Tiered Pyramid model with its associated rules/models. Make an inventory on detail itemizing and start from there instead of draw conclusion with random based?

while itemizely audit the inventory,

May be one might find out one doesnt have a three tiered pyramid but just some fragmented applications in the application tier and one called that WCK.

May be one might find out what one do is another version of fragmented Karate engine with mimic Tan Da mix instead of WCK.

May be one might find out it is some Boxing, some karate, some Bjj and some kali mix instead of WCK.

May be one might find out one have never gone through the 4 stages of implementation/realization but stop at stage 1 and thinking one has already master the art?

If that is the case, then how can one talked about obsolete and out-model on something one doesnt have a clear idea about?

As for the Fighting, IMHHO, one dont fight. One exercute what one had been train.
Thus, one needs to find out what is it and the capability of the “stuffs” one train in. otherwise, there is no deposit in the bank and how can one with draw money to buy anything?

Everything is OBsolete and out date, out model when there is no deposito in the bank.

since GOLD has neither tradition or modern but Gold. Then gold in a bank account be it the Great Britain bank 1880 or City Bank 2010 always a great deposit.

The question is do one really have gold deposit in the bank?

Similarly there is no traditional or modern bullet. a bullet is a bullet. one can kill a guy with any bullet. so the point is do the gun has a bullet?

just some ideas.

OSU!

11

:wink:

T,
my boxing , MMA . vale tudo Bjj etc, friends
don’t doubt me at all in fact my old boxing coach just asked me to teach him wing chun and some sticks !

more often then not they want me to work out with them they have a very hard time trying make there game work on me

now we are normally training not [fighting] :wink:

i have brought many of them over to meet gary and he move around with them and they have mad respect for his skills

and gary gives them all the respect in the world [ fighter to fighter ]

MY tap out buddies even asked me to help the with hitting from the mount , they wanted to impliment short power with hands and elbows

but i guess i don’t count because i’m in condition , have years of sparring with these guys under my belt :wink:

out dated hmmmm more like the training methods have turned into watered down conversation pieces

if you have a goal , to improve your skill [ not to become a wing chun robot poster boy ]

you can draw alot out of the training methods , but you need to focus on you , not becomeing some one else and you need a goal , not just going through some set up system floating around for years with no measuring stick

when you base it on your greedy growth , you will draw out what you need create your own goal and drive yourself , you will use the skills the system introduced any way you see fit
not be a clown with your robot antenna sticking out hoping he hits you in some familier way and activates you program

:cool:

12

Hi,
The problem is that a lot of wing chun knoledge has already been lost due to people hearding their knoledge at the expense of the system. when was the last time you heard two NHB/MMA guys argue about who’s style was better and if it was modified or traditional. In the world of professional fighting there can be no secrets to become the best only hardwork and openess of training methods will make the art continue to get better with time, just like it was in china before the boxer revolution when the sifus started to hold back certain key knoledge in case his student turned against him. KNOLEDGE IS MENT TO BE SHARED, then it can grow and be truely enjoyed by everyone involved.
Sometimes i wish people like Hendrik and some others on this forum that’s secretive understand what sharing truely means and the rewards that you can reep back from it especially different peoples experiences.

In my opinion most of the time the MMA/NHB fighters view fighting from practical experiences, so i value their opinions. However we must remember that their training reflects the invironment that they fight in, which is very real, but not necessaryly all out survival/street fighting. MMA/NHB fighting does not allow dirty street tactics such as attacking certain areas as well as biting, and therefore reflects what works under these controlled conditions. This is not to say it couldn’t work in all out street fights with some modifications but then we would probably be reinventing something similar to wing chun anyways. Every martial art works best for the intent/situation that it was created to work for, including the wing chun system.

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I dont know any of them that are not in bad condition or have regular pain.

Your experience is rather different from mine … and I probably know many more grapplers than you.

I know quite a few older guys that have been doing judo and/or jiu jitsu for decades. They are in excellent health with no major physical problems. The 70+ wrestling coach I knew in Melbourne who had been doing it all his life was in superb condition and throwing people around regularly.

I know a fairly well-known WC guy, younger than me, who’s had two knee replacements, major ankle surgery, and can’t afford to get head-punched hard again without risking both retinal and brain damage, all training-related.

WSL and Jerry McKinley (and Bruce Lee) died before their time, no disrespect and RIP.

Helio Gracie is still doing well at 90+.

I’m 50, I train for fitness, challenge, and enjoyment, not for the extraordinarily unlikely streetfight with multiple grapplers. After 5 years BJJ has yet to seriously mess me up; I’ve had black eyes, concussion, broken toes, etc. from WC. But both have increased my physical abilities and attributes, and so far this process is continuing.

But individual cases and anecdotal evidence do not really support general arguments.

The art isn’t outmoded, just some of its practitioner’s attitudes (not you personally Jim).

14

I think E said it all here.

The concepts and techniques of WC are pretty timeless, it’s how we develop them and more importantly, how we USE them.

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If your purpose is to have fun, enjoy some social activity, and learn an interesting cultural art, then WCK is neither obsolete nor out-moded.

If your desire self defense, you’re better off buying Strong on Defense for a couple bucks and starting there.

If your desire is to compete in the UFC and K-1, then that’s combat sports and it requires a modern approach to athletics, mental preperation, coaching, and some degree of natural ability (“vitamins” not-withstanding) or intense dedication to purpose.

And in the old days they fist-fought a lot more, which meant they tested their stuff under high resistance, which is a weeding process (both technically and personally) all its own.

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Jim,

While it is true the human body hasn’t changed, that doesn’t mean that our knowledge of fighting hasn’t evolved (based on experiences over time, new insights into how to effectively train, myths being dispelled, etc.). I’ve a friend that does Renassaince “western martial arts” (sword fighting and wrestling) but he recognizes that both wrestling and fencing evolved since the 1600s.
And even if the body hasn’t changed, that doesn’t mean that some fighting method from the past made the best use of it, had the most effective tools or tactics, etc. Nor does it help to say these things worked in the past since that begs the question: against whom (what level of skill)?

RR wrote:

If your purpose is to have fun, enjoy some social activity, and learn an interesting cultural art, then WCK is neither obsolete nor out-moded.

**Quite true, like my friend who does Renaissance WMA. It’s a great hobby.

If your desire self defense, you’re better off buying Strong on Defense for a couple bucks and starting there.

**True.

If your desire is to compete in the UFC and K-1, then that’s combat sports and it requires a modern approach to athletics, mental preperation, coaching, and some degree of natural ability (“vitamins” not-withstanding) or intense dedication to purpose.

**What if you don’t want to compete but just enjoy the fighting aspects?

And in the old days they fist-fought a lot more, which meant they tested their stuff under high resistance, which is a weeding process (both technically and personally) all its own.

**That’s a good point; similar to what happens today in BJJ, boxing, muay thai gyms.

Tom, Ernie,

You guys seem to have the same “answer” – show them you can make it work. If you can do that, that seems to be a great answer.

Kungfufighter,

How do you know that “knowledge was hoarded”?

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I think anything that we as humans do, will improve over time. Is the quality of the fighting arts better today than it was 150-200yrs ago? That’s a good question. Back in those days or the days when WC was created, wasn’t there a revolution going on? Warfare can make one very skilled in their respective Martial Art, out of the need for necessity, not glory. Probably the average person sucked at Martial Arts back then, just due to lack of access to proper information, not like today where you can download media or find information on just about any Martial art. There are definitely more of us practicing Martial Arts today than in years gone by, IMO. I also believe that we as westerners appreciate the Oriental Martial Arts more so than the average Oriental as they have had the Martial Arts within their culture for Centuries, whereas we have only had it in ours for maybe a Century now, so it is still new for us and we appreciate more of what it has to offer us, in this fast paced environment.

With all the practitioners of WC in the world today, and with the varying associations and organizations that are alive, I think this is a good thing as it will promote improvement and analysis of the Wing Chun system. Competition in this sense is a good thing, as organizations have to stay on top of things and constantly improve the quality of what they teach to stay in the game of promoting their respective organization and Wing Chun system. :slight_smile:

James

18

Yesterday was interesting. The local place where I often go on Tues. for some open mat time also has a Japanese JJ guy teaching classes, and he and some of his students had been considering trying out BJJ/Sub graps tournaments and so wanted to try out the open mat night as a way to gage their readiness.

Now, the teacher had been to Gracie seminars since the early 90s and had picked up some grappling from Grappling Magazine, and tried out the moves on each other in class, but they’d never rolled.

They didn’t do too well. Cardio was a big problem, they got tired after just a few minutes. Most of them stuck with it for 60, though they were dead tired. Only 1 lasted 90+

They knew pins and they knew submissions, but they had no idea how to control during the transition from one to the other, so they couldn’t get anything to work (nor could they counter basic positional escapes).

They were shocked at the difference between compliant partner reps, and resistan t freestyle training.

As an aside, what really impressed me was their teacher. He was 74 fricken years old, and he rolled quasi-steady for 60 min., and was pretty dang fiesty the whole time, going for Jujigatame, Udegarami, and other typical JJJ holds.

If I can still go like that at 74, I will be incredibly happy.

(Note: they offered to teach us Bo Kata in exchange for the time spent rolling with them, but it was not something any of us were interested in currently)

19

TN,

“**What if you don’t want to compete but just enjoy the fighting aspects?”

Then it goes back to just doing it because you enjoy it. Let’s say boxing was PROVEN by alien psychics to be 1.3 times more effective than WCK, but you hated boxing. It was too boring and you had trauma from bad Rocky movies seen in childhood. But, you loved the concepts, logic flow, progression, and other aspects of WCK. Since you didn’t want to make a living fighting, would it matter that it was only .87 times as effective in clone pit testing?

One of the greatest keys to success is consistency. If you enjoy something, you are more likely to be consistent with it. And that’s something that needs to be factored in. The human element is often what futzez up any scientific equation :slight_smile:

20

IMHHO,

1, Doesnt seems to evolve beyond the general theme of " the big beat the weak. the more etheletics beat the less etheletics. the one knows more move beat the one knows less move. the one with faster speed beat the one with slower speed." which the chinese has said hundred of years ago.

2, a comparison without a clear related relationship is just a fuzzy speculation. western and eastern oftern doesnt travel the same evolution or de -evolution.

3, until one knows what happen in the past. this is an assumption without based.

The Chinese Martial art in particulary the TaiJi has recorded " Those are side door art, eventhought the energetics take different shape, it is not within the Fast beat the Slow. The physicallystrong beat the weak. .."

Dont one will be curious why in old 1700’s time the chinese has already has this thoughts? Dont one will be curious what kind of technology invention has been invented to go beyond the above “physical strong beat the weak” ?

IMHHO, one can keep evolve, evolve within a domain such as the physical strong beat the weak. and one never get beyond the “bigger shoulder muscle talk louder " bottom line. is that anything new? sure today we can have all kind of drug to make a super sport eltheletics stars by promoting SPEED growing muscle, growing all the physical and stamina… but the side effect might be one is speeding into grave too.”

OSU!