Is it ok for Wing Chun to evolve?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Do you think it is ok to modify or change wing chun and still call it wing chun?

Should the art be flexible enough to change with the times and / or geography as it moves to different places and faces different issues and styles than what it was designed to face originally?

Or perhaps it is a piece of history meant to be preserved as is. Even that is a difficult task as different lineages have added their own flavor in the recent past.

I’m curious at to how people feel about this. Perhaps a slight modification to the name would show the root but acknowledge that it has been changed. American Wing Chun for example or Wing Chun Jistu if you want to marry the 2 styles.

How do you feel about what is and isn’t Wing Chun?

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[QUOTE=m1k3;1076024]Do you think it is ok to modify or change wing chun and still call it wing chun?

Should the art be flexible enough to change with the times and / or geography as it moves to different places and faces different issues and styles than what it was designed to face originally?

Or perhaps it is a piece of history meant to be preserved as is. Even that is a difficult task as different lineages have added their own flavor in the recent past.

I’m curious at to how people feel about this. Perhaps a slight modification to the name would show the root but acknowledge that it has been changed. American Wing Chun for example or Wing Chun Jistu if you want to marry the 2 styles.

How do you feel about what is and isn’t Wing Chun?[/QUOTE]

I think it has evolved… in many different ways already

Some good, some bad.

GlennR

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In my humble opinion, I think it’s inappropriate to change a style like Wing Chun and continue to call it Wing Chun. This virtually never seems to happen with other traditional Chinese systems. I think wing chun is especially prone to this because of the Bruce Lee/JKD connection. A lot of people have dabbled in it or came into it having already decided to blend it with other things, because the perception is that Bruce Lee did. In my personal experience with a limited number of those people, they do so without really understanding what’s going on in wing chun.

I’m not knocking JKD or modern MMA training, I’m just saying that I regret that people claim ties to a traditional style if that is not their approach to it.

I’ll also say that I think that most good traditional systems, Wing Chun included, have layers of learning, practice and discovery and there is a point with a lot of people where they chose to go deep instead of broad with their system. Others chose broad and that’s fine for them. But I don’t think those people should represent a sound knowledge of one of the styles that they have collected techniques from.

That’s just my humble opinion and own set of sensibilities around it. I don’t want to start anything with that assertion. I’m certain that others will have differing perspectives.

That said, I think there is a natural growth, evolution and adaptation with systems and training. In crude terms, most of the Chinese systems had some basis in eastern medicine (chi, meridian lines, etc), but American and even Asian practitioners at this point, don’t ignore things that we may know about western medicine when we have a training injury or are considering how to condition. Situational awareness of commuting by SEPTA (maybe in your case) is as relevant as the situational awareness that perhaps the monks and nuns in early days of Wing Chun included in their practice and I think they would adapt that way if they were here now. You may jog and do things like planks to strengthen your core as part of your training and I think that’s great. It doesn’t change the system, but you’re not practicing in a way more typical of a Chinese era-gone-by.

Training for conflicts with contemporary opponents is also very important, I think. Ignoring the current skillsets, techniques of the collective bad guys out there is not something that I think our ancestors would suggest. But, on the other hand, I don’t think they would be trying to figure out how to integrate BJJ or spinning back kicks. If they did, I think they would call it something new. That’s how most “new” Chinese systems seem to have been born, by my own research.

I believe in modern practice, but respect for the art. If I ever feel like what I’m doing isn’t meeting my needs, I would look for something else. What you learn becomes part of you, even when you move on. But, I wouldn’t try to pull the system with me on my tangential journey. I feel like that’s making the system about me and even if I were to feel like it didn’t meet my complete needs (which I don’t) then I hope I would respect it and my teachers enough to leave them out of my personal journey.

Again, I don’t want to get caught up in contentious discussions here and I think this one has the makings of one-to-be. I hope none of my comments contribute to that. I’m new here and if I get off on the wrong foot, then I apologize.

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What if the new product hardly looks like the wing chun of old?

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Wasn’t the Dragon Pole an evolution to WC?

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[QUOTE=m1k3;1076024]Do you think it is ok to modify or change wing chun and still call it wing chun?[/QUOTE]

If Shuai Chiao (SC) can evolve into combat Shuai Chiao (CC) by adding the kicking and punching elements into it then I don’t see any reason why Wing Chun cannot evolve into something similiar by adding the throwing and locking elements into it.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076036]I…by adding the throwing and locking elements into it.[/QUOTE]

Please take this with the spirit in which it is intended, but are you certain that those elements are not already part of Wing Chun?

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It’s a good question.

My take on WC is that it is built on the forms, drills (chi sao etc.), weapons and dummy training with which everyone is familiar. If you add stuff to it that isn’t part of that it ceases to be WC but becomes something else.

I started KF with a guy who taught an eclectic style of WC, CLF and Northern Sil Lum,. He was a Nidan in Goju Ryu karate and a black belt in JJJ before he started KF and so brought other influences to the table as well. He doesn’t call what he does WC.

Few people these days can stick with the same teacher for 25 years, and it’s debatable whether that’s the best idea anyway. Most of the people who seem to regard themselves as seasoned practitioners have had multiple teachers and have studied other arts as well.

I don’t agree with the WC jitsu approach. I’ve practised BJJ for a while, and my take is that the two systems are best trained separately and that attempts to blend them are a waste of time. If you want to fight MMA rules or put the two together for the str33t, you have to train that as a third discipline IMO.

The art need not change. If you want to be a complete fighter in this day and age, pure WC isn’t enough. You have to have a mix of skills with a wide application, and IMO WC doesn’t have them all.

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I will not be surprised that oneday people will add MT roundhouse kick or flying knee at the end of (Biao Zhi) form right after the “chain punches”.

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In TCMA, one learns the art in its set methods: forms, two man sets, weapons, core drills, San Sao, etc. There is a fixed curriculum. Some are short like WCK and specialized. Others have a big curriculum and try to cover everything - think CLF, Shaolin, Northern Mantis, Eagle Claw. In TCMA, you master, then pass on the complete curriculum your sifu passes on to you, with or without changes. Also in TCMA, it is expected that each generation make their art relevant to the general conditions of their time.

In fighting, it is personal and in the moment, so whatever skills you have, you use. Fighting encompasses, at the same time, more than any traditional curriculum can, and also is one small part of the curriculum that is actually being used.

As a martial artist, it is to your benefit to learn striking, kicking, throwing, joint locking, ground fighting, impact weapons, long weapons, blades, projectiles, firearms, and more.

So using these 3 different ways to look at it, WCK can “evolve”, but does one refer to the system, personal style, curriculum, or teaching methodology?

BTW, it doesn’t matter if its okay or not. It just does.

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We can call it “cross training”. We can also call it “style evolution”. It’s just different words. The end result will be the same. Whether you just want to take care of yourself, or contribute to your style will be up to you to decide.

The 1st day that a MT guy used his flying knee on me, I liked it so much. That evening, I modify my jumping kick in my from. After that day, my form has “flying knee”.

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Hello,

Wing Chun was created as an “evolution” so of course it should continue to evolve today. However, that does not mean just adding things because you like them and call whatever results as Wing Chun. IMHO, WC has a specific foundation and it is on this foundation that anything evolving will need to be added. WC will never be BJJ and if you opt to add BJJ then consider that they may need to be seperate arts, which may be able to be integrated, but the result will be something different than WC. Not necessarily better or worse, but different. Of course, you can call what you do whatever you want as it is your expression. Just don’t get mad if some does not agree with you.

The other consideration is why you train; Is it for combat, sport or tradition?

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;1076069]The other consideration is why you train; Is it for combat, sport or tradition?[/QUOTE]

This is the main issue. Do you train for yourself? or do you train for your system? If you train for yourself then you are the master and your style will be your slave, and you can do anything you want to. If you train for your system then you may want to keep your style as “pure” as possible so people in the future generation will know exactly what the original system suppose to look like. The only problem is if you teach your students exactly the same way as you have learned from your teacher, you may act just like a “copy machine” and you will have no contributation to your system. In order to have any contributation to your system, you do need to add something extra in.

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Of course its ok to change the system, IMO its important that WC does evolve as the purpose and theater its used in changes.

Some people though need to learn the core basics before re inventing the wheel and moreover need to lable it appropriately.

If i change my WC it will be named after myself so as to identify it as been changed. Its dis ingenuous to keep the name the same in this senario though.

The 1st day that a MT guy used his flying knee on me, I liked it so much. That evening, I modify my jumping kick in my from. After that day, my form has “flying knee”.

If it works great, use it. But jumping isnt VT. When you open a school call it “youknowwho Ving Tsun”

:o

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If you are talking about evolution away from the basics, then it can not work. There are certain concepts that must be adhered to in order for Wing Chun to actually work. and if you evolve away from these concepts you will find it will no longer work. You will have to evolve completely away from it in that case. You can add other martial art techniques if you want, and it is not going to evolve away from the basic concepts. I can do JJJ while also doing WC, but it does not mean that I have evolved it to include or become part of my WC. It remains seperate, and I can use either one as the situation calls for or according to what I feel like I need to do at the time.

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[QUOTE=m1k3;1076024]Do you think it is ok to modify or change wing chun and still call it wing chun?

To truly modify one should first know the art. If you mix things up- hopefully you won’t call it wing chun-truth in labelling idea.

joy chaudhuri

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Trying to evolve boxing into Judo may be impossible. Trying to “integrate” boxing and Judo is possible. May be the word “integration” will be a better word for “evolution”. Instead of saying:

A -> C

may be it’s better to say:

A + B = C

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Carlson Gracie’s bjj evolved. Look what his young protege Vitor Belfort did to Wanderlai Silva. He was only 21 years old at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjrz76qqRac

I mention this because it seemed as though Vitor used a wing chun like chain punch attack to end the fight so quickly. Although it looks like the first punch was sort of like a rear cross. If he fights like that against Anderson Silva, I think he could win.

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[QUOTE=Nite Templar;1076558]Carlson Gracie’s bjj evolved. Look what his young protege Vitor Belfort did to Wanderlai Silva. He was only 21 years old at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjrz76qqRac

I mention this because it seemed as though Vitor used a wing chun like chain punch attack to end the fight so quickly. Although it looks like the first punch was sort of like a rear cross. If he fights like that against Anderson Silva, I think he could win.[/QUOTE]

please that was straight boxing, the only time carlson touched wing chun was to make money years later off seminars

none of his fighters including victor ever trained wing chun

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If WC was like this, no it wouldn’t need to evolve.