WC past and future...your opinion.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

What is Wing Chun to you? I am going to use jujutsu as an example of what I am talking about simply because the history and recent evolution are so well documented.

Classical Jujutsu. Many schools of classical JJ can trace their history back to a single family in feudal Japan. They want to practice the style as closely as possible to the way it was taught back then. Training is based primarily on kata and compliant drills

Judo. An evolved version of jujutsu. Used western sporting methodology rolled into the traditional training. Still uses kata as part of the training but added randori and sporting events to the training. Some schools are more traditional while some are almost all sport focused.

BJJ and Sambo. New variants based on Judo with the addition of wrestling and other techniques. Even less traditional than Judo. Very focused on alive sparring and competition to develop skills.

Submission Grappling. An eclectic blend of many grappling styles even less traditional than BJJ and Sambo. No jackets or traditional uniforms are worn. Still based on the loosely old styles but will include anything that fits.

I have intentionally left western wrestling out of this (Folk style, free style, Greco and Catch). They have all had an impact on the development of the newer styles from Judo on but for the sake of argument have nothing to do with the linage of the example.

So, do you see your WC as more classical or maybe traditional but not as restrictive or maybe even free wheeling picking up whatever it needs to work.

And where do you think WC should be heading?

I think this information might help people see each others views of WC and how it is used.

2

Once all the LARPERs die off, I think that WC will turn into an art with MT hands and Savate kicks with a super cool clinch entry system. I think that it already is that on some level, but there are too many lARPERs muddying the waters.

3

Personally, I think that Wing Chun by definition is in a state of constant development.

For me the future of Wing Chun is heavily dependant on future generations taking the style forward into mainstream martial arts events and promotions while the past generations heal their wounds and improve family relations.

I’ve always been taught to see the artistic, sporting, and cultural elements within martial arts and see Wing Chun, as I know it, to be representative of all three.

4

I think that WC will probably “splinter” into two groups:
One the focuses more on the 'attached fighting" that T speaks about and it will be more grappling oriented, of course.

And the other will be more striking oriented and the grappling that happens will be done to create opportunities to strike and be as “unattached” as possible.

5

WCK is dying and it is almost dead.

In the future, all styles will be seen for what they are – artificial artifices.

People will no longer care about teaching styles, but focus instead on teaching and developing individuals.

6

Wing Chun is about simplicity. It is a scientific approach to fighting similar to western boxing.

It is about the most simple way to defeat your enemy, thus it does not seek to grapple, to do round type punches or kicks.

Obviously this can be an advantage for a person and a disadvantage for others.

Even though everybody had two arms and two legs, everybody has different abilities to apply.

Somethings can be applied quite quickly and other things need a few years of proper training.

Traditional MA such as Wing Chun will always be around, but they will be like Rum with added water, it would have lost its true flavour.

7

I think that if the wing chun community as a whole doesn’t take their heads out of their arses and figure out a consistent regimen and defined system (that can actually produce good fighters) then the art will die as a fighting system.

It might survive as a meager entity in pockets here and there…but that’s about it. Honestly that might be the best thing for it, as the larger the community, the more watered down and bureaucratic it becomes. You can see evidence of this as BJJ is already starting to exhibit the mcdojo phenomena where everyone has a black belt regardless of actual skill or knowledge in the art.

It doesn’t really matter though…because as Terence said all styles will eventually become irrelevant, existing only as entrees to add to one’s plate. Fighting can be simplistically looked at (in terms of areas of specialty) as striking and grappling. That’s really all there is to it. How you decide to strike, and how you decide to grapple will be dependent upon your strengths and weaknesses, your attitude, your goals, and so forth.

8

[QUOTE=Niersun;1015135]Wing Chun is about simplicity. It is a scientific approach to fighting similar to western boxing.
[/QUOTE]

Absolute rubbish. This is the nonsense WCK people tell each other to make themselves feel superior.

It is about the most simple way to defeat your enemy, thus it does not seek to grapple, to do round type punches or kicks.

Theoretical fantasy.

Obviously this can be an advantage for a person and a disadvantage for others.

Even though everybody had two arms and two legs, everybody has different abilities to apply.

Somethings can be applied quite quickly and other things need a few years of proper training.

Traditional MA such as Wing Chun will always be around, but they will be like Rum with added water, it would have lost its true flavour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

Yup, scientific, only straight punches, no grappling, blah, blah, blah.

9

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1015018]WCK is dying and it is almost dead.

In the future, all styles will be seen for what they are – artificial artifices.

People will no longer care about teaching styles, but focus instead on teaching and developing individuals.[/QUOTE]

Funny that :rolleyes:

The Wing Chun I know is all about the development of the individual. :wink:

10

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1015156]Funny that :rolleyes:

The Wing Chun I know is all about the development of the individual. ;)[/QUOTE]

Funny that – where are all the great fighters this “development of the individual” has produced? Most WCK is about the development of the individual’s fantasy life.

11

[QUOTE=m1k3;1014900]What is Wing Chun to you? I am going to use jujutsu as an example of what I am talking about simply because the history and recent evolution are so well documented.

Classical Jujutsu. Many schools of classical JJ can trace their history back to a single family in feudal Japan. They want to practice the style as closely as possible to the way it was taught back then. Training is based primarily on kata and compliant drills

Judo. An evolved version of jujutsu. Used western sporting methodology rolled into the traditional training. Still uses kata as part of the training but added randori and sporting events to the training. Some schools are more traditional while some are almost all sport focused.

BJJ and Sambo. New variants based on Judo with the addition of wrestling and other techniques. Even less traditional than Judo. Very focused on alive sparring and competition to develop skills.

Submission Grappling. An eclectic blend of many grappling styles even less traditional than BJJ and Sambo. No jackets or traditional uniforms are worn. Still based on the loosely old styles but will include anything that fits.

I have intentionally left western wrestling out of this (Folk style, free style, Greco and Catch). They have all had an impact on the development of the newer styles from Judo on but for the sake of argument have nothing to do with the linage of the example.

So, do you see your WC as more classical or maybe traditional but not as restrictive or maybe even free wheeling picking up whatever it needs to work.

And where do you think WC should be heading?

I think this information might help people see each others views of WC and how it is used.[/QUOTE]

VT is fine its the guys “teaching” it that are the problem :D, many have done so with parts of the puzzle and parts missing entirely. Creating 'VT GAR ’ families for financial reasons of $ dvd series etc… Trying to create ‘fighting’ system with patchwork ideas from the kuen kuit, using personal interpretations without full system knowledge, learning from seminar visits . Full, meaning weapons, fighting regularly with the system and staying close to the teacher throughout ones life. Not leaving for foreign parts in their youth and going back for ‘refreshers’. Then making stuff up or simply saying ‘do it my way or leave’. We take brand names as ‘gospel’ because masters of all mightiness decree it works…wrong !
Fighting with VT is a different animal to what most are training these days. Lost in the quagmire of drills with self-deluding ‘chi-sao moves’ that they are going to try in a real fight. Lacking speed , force etc… worse is trying to recreate the system to become the next ninja vt, next cage fighting vt with ground fighting included in previously undivulged vt ground fighting , whats next ?

VT is doing fine…we dont blame Mozart for a bad cover rendition of his music by another musician do we ? So why blame the system.

12

Firstly, I think that the future of wing chun is based upon competitions; ie.- those styles and schools that produce competitors on a consistent basis within venues that feature full contact sparring will survive - and those that don’t will either die out or fade away into obscurity.

Secondly, those styles and schools that compete will eventually be swept up into the mma craze - and that’s a good thing - since nhb, mma approaches to all martial arts means more realistic training and more realistic fighting skills.

Thirdly, I see this transition to a more mma-based wing chun occurring in three stages.

The first will be a bigger use of boxing and kickboxing moves and concepts to bridge the gap into close range striking and the more “conventional” wing chun standup fighting. And eventually even the use of wing chun in close range will include boxing hooks, uppercuts, etc.

The second will be learning how to get safely into clinch, and how to work from there with things like MT plum neckties with knee strikes (already in sight when one looks at the half plum and strike that exists in the wooden dummy form)… and of course, use of elbow strikes from clinch or semi-clinch (which again, won’t be far off from what is used already in wing chun).

The third will be the incorporation of legitimate wrestling/grappling based defenses against takedowns - as opposed to the “anti-grabbling” approach that some wing chun lineages and schools are taking now. Wing chun fighters will be earning sprawling techniques, underhooks, w h i z z e r s, how to crossface, etc.

And finally, use of legitimate wrestling takedowns, judo, throws, etc…and into a ground game that will feature legitimate wrestling/grappling - and therefore will include submissions and striking from the ground.

13

Wing Chun as a style taught in commercial schools will shrink drastically, becoming a niche for people who like the idea of martial arts but don’t want to put real hard work into training (like the internal arts). Some schools will try to enter the current MMA paradigm but they will end up more like BJJ and Thai boxing than anything else.
There will still be individuals who put in the hard work and get experience and grow and learn, but they are rare. The history of Wing Chun is about individuals who advanced the training methods and learned through application, not the masses who did forms and spouted what they heard from others. Of the literally thousands of practitioners in the world today.. how many can even throw a decent punch? It’s fine with me that the art shrinks and we cut a lot of that “fat” off. For Fux sake how many supposed grand masters can’t even throw a good punch or haven’t ever applied their training.
So Wing Chun will shrink and evolve with the idividual practitioner.

14

Guys, MMA has been with us for what 20 years now? and MT even longer than that and guess what, there are still WC schools and TMA schools everywhere.
They are NOT going anywhere.
Styles of fighting will always exist,just as they have always existed.
Why?
Because no one MA “fits” all people.

15

What about those people who practice the art for the arts sake. They don’t really care about fighting, like the socialization and workout and basically like all the forms, drills and low contact chi sao? Don’t you think that these types of schools will continue to thrive?

There are still plenty of TKD and Karate schools out there who have never done anything more aggressive than no-contact point sparring and continue to do well.

And to be honest is this a bad thing? Most people never get involved in anything beyond harsh language all their adult lives anyway. At least they are not sitting on their butts in front of the TV and they have the self confidence of knowing “kung fu” which may be enough to keep them from being targeted as victims.

16

[QUOTE=m1k3;1015174]What about those people who practice the art for the arts sake. They don’t really care about fighting, like the socialization and workout and basically like all the forms, drills and low contact chi sao? Don’t you think that these types of schools will continue to thrive?

There are still plenty of TKD and Karate schools out there who have never done anything more aggressive than no-contact point sparring and continue to do well.

And to be honest is this a bad thing? Most people never get involved in anything beyond harsh language all their adult lives anyway. At least they are not sitting on their butts in front of the TV and they have the self confidence of knowing “kung fu” which may be enough to keep them from being targeted as victims.[/QUOTE]

nope its not a bad thing hell how many people actually compete who train MMA/Grappling?
people LARP all the time its exercise its fun and they enjoy themselves which is why so many tradioional school still excist even in this day of MMA people may know what they are training is not the most efficent way to train, but they also don;t care.

where its goes wrong is when these people are deluded into thinking what they are training will allow them to fight or survive in an bad situation.

What i find funny is where people say the art is fine its the people only learning a bit of the style and then making up the rest to teach and make money that are the problem…as far as i know no one can point to 1 single Yip mans first tear students, there is not one person people agree on got the complete system. Maybe thats the problem with wing chun everyone things everyone else has the incomplete system when in fact its them that along with everyone else has the incomplete system.

17

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1015161]Funny that – where are all the great fighters this “development of the individual” has produced? Most WCK is about the development of the individual’s fantasy life.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of your own experience here?

I can’t remember saying that fighting has anything to do with individual development either. MANY individuals want to learn a martial art so they don’t have to fight! Have you never seen the Karate Kid??!! :smiley:

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1015161]Guys, MMA has been with us for what 20 years now? and MT even longer than that and guess what, there are still WC schools and TMA schools everywhere.
They are NOT going anywhere.
Styles of fighting will always exist,just as they have always existed.
Why?
Because no one MA “fits” all people.[/QUOTE]

Great post! :wink:

Wing Chun has been in existence for over 300 years BEFRORE we even see it in the West! So I have a little confidence that it will still be here (in whatever form!) in another 300 years…

18

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1015154]Absolute rubbish. This is the nonsense WCK people tell each other to make themselves feel superior.

Theoretical fantasy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

Yup, scientific, only straight punches, no grappling, blah, blah, blah.[/QUOTE]

Please enlighten me on what Wing Chun is all about if it is not about simplicity.

The only one living in a fantasy world is you as you clearly demonstrate that you dont know **** all about WC, yet you feel inclined to type rubbish.

Your a joke and i doubt you even train MMA against competitive fighters. Arent you 50 yrs old??? What competitive fighters spars against a 50 yr old who spends a **** load of time on the internet??? Unless your getting paid to be a sparring partner to get beaten up. You probably just read and think your an expert.

Wing Chun is about simplicity, thats why it was created. Reduced number of forms, the most simplistic line of attack.

I am not saying that WC is the best in developing good fighters, as that is determined on your entire training program, not just limited to your MA training.

I doubt that you can even run 2-3 miles. Just some old overweight wannabe on the internet.

19

Guys, MMA has been with us for what 20 years now? and MT even longer than that and guess what, there are still WC schools and TMA schools everywhere.
They are NOT going anywhere.
Styles of fighting will always exist,just as they have always existed.
Why?
Because no one MA “fits” all people.

This.

Rumours of WC’s death aren’t supported by observation. No schools going out of business in this neck of the woods.

You know, T, that EVIDENCE stuff you keep carping on about? For WC’s imminent death, there is none.

“Wing Chun” is not a real entity. As far as my academy goes, we are also training in BJJ and MMA. But not “blending” them with WC, diversifying.

20

I never considered WC was dieing. I was thinking more of my JJ example and what Victor has been talking about and can see a parallel.

  1. Classical schools focused on a particular lineage. They will be forms and drills based.

  2. Somewhat classical schools, still the same focus but willing to compete in WC based events.

  3. WC schools that use WC as a base to compete in San Da and other kickboxing type events.

  4. WC schools that use WC as a part of their MMA training and compete in MMA events.

Now using this example where do you see what you are doing fit in? And, where do you see your school or lineage fit in?

Me, I am a grappler who has done some WC and uses the "anti-grab’ skills (discussed in another thread) as part of my grappling. I don’t train it but I could see the short range striking fitting in to a grappling focused system as well.