ED: well, i have just never seen any style i’ve run across have more than some striking and joint locks that they maybe worked while prone. but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling.
and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll…
jake,
great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.
and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll…
LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately
but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling
I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing…
ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn’t 8 Step then is it even kung fu?
my first teacher was also a wrestler, my second teacher was also a judoka…they both added in elements of those things to round out our skills but never claimed they were cma.
SC may or may not have ground grappling…I haven’t seen any of it though…and I’ve not seen a whole lot of SC either so, i just don’t know.
it is safe to say that most kung fu IS basically a stand up art with a minimal percentage of it’s attention (if any) paid to grappling on the ground…most kung fu doesn’t even address a proper stand up clinch, mostly sticking to trapping and moving on.
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;910644]Jesus!!! Now the Wing Chunners are coming over to the Mantis group spreading their drama! Plenty of drama with the Mantis folks, leave us be please!![/QUOTE]
I am here to learn and as you see the crap is coming from Kansuke (a friend of Sanuro´s) who does not practice any kung fu. He is here to troll and disrupt threads with his slanderous remarks.
So, it is best to ignore him and hopefully kansuke and Sanjuro ronin will quitely escort each other out of this thread to which they have not contributed as far as the thread subject matter is concerned.
Oso,
ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn’t 8 Step then is it even kung fu?
not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher… all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished…
[QUOTE=Oso;910936]and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll…[/QUOTE]
Please show some respect. I started this topic to have a serious discussion about the ground fighting aspect of kung fu, specially Northern Mantis and to learn something from the people who actually practice/teach this potent style.
If you have fallen for the false image of me projected by the MMA community of this forum and you wish to start silly arguments, then please make your way to the main forum and go crazy. Otherwise make your peace and be respectful.
Thank you!
right…
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;910997]Oso,
ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn’t 8 Step then is it even kung fu?
not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher… all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished…[/QUOTE]
fair enough and, imo, not a bad thing at all.
Redfish said something on another thread about the nomenclature of the forms and how we are all doing the same kung fu irrelevent of the name…i thought that was good thinking and I think it can go another step further in that we are all after the same goal in martial arts…but the problem arises when pride and ego get in the way of simply saying “I don’t know xxx”.
The simple fix is to find someone who can teach you xxx or yyy as the case may be.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;910751]Jake,
not to disagree as I said my teacher may have very well added ground work to 8 step to prepare us for the octogan, but I found this article on a webiste as I have found hundreds (too many to list here) but there are many about mantis ground fighting. [/quote]
Actually when I think about it I appreciate that the Chinese masters who created the animal styles took many of the fighting “essences” of these animals and adopted it to humans.
When one thinks of an insect fighting then many times it is ground fighting.
When a Seven Star Praying Mantis practitioner gains experience against other styles of fighting then he can apply the principles and concepts of his system to overcome each type of fighting approach. This includes, for example, grappling on the ground. Once the skills of a ground-grappling stylist are understood the principles and concepts of Seven Star Praying Mantis, such as redirection, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, and trapping tactics can be employed to successfully neutralize and defend against this fighting range.
This is my understanding of what happens in part in Siu Lam Wing Chun groundfighting. The groundfighting takes place “inside” the principles and concepts of WC, but using chi-na and striking techniques.
Agreed!
How can people claim that when wrestling arts were around in China long before kung fu and still continue?
Do the proponents of “no groundfighting” in kung fu believe that none of the masters who created the major kung fu styles foresaw a scenario where a fight would go to the ground?
Do some people think that the old masters thought that they would create all these lethal striking and Chi-na techniques that take years to master but did not bother to address the odd wrestler who may attack kung fu practitioner?
Yes you are right EarthDragon, many kung fu styles do address groundfighting. Wether these aspects are trained nowadays in the era of Mcdojos/kwoons, is another story.
That is why in the past I have had differences with people who would make comments like “there is no groundfighting in kung fu”; “kung fu has no power” etc. while themselves having had nothing more than a passing “flirtation” with TCMA and probably in a McKwoon to start with on their way to Muay thai, bjj and so on.
I believe that as your quote says a better understanding of the principles and concepts of an individual system will open many doors that will expose the richness of styles such as Praying Mantis. 
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;910969]jake,
great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.
and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll…
LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately
but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling
I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing…[/QUOTE]
Tim Cartmell did an excellent book ( did the translation) on CHin’Na that had quiet some ground work in it, including guard work, arm bars, leg locks and such.
Practicla Chin_na I think was the name.
I Highly recommend it.
I have been training CMA for over 25 years now…have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period…I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.
That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80’s when I started. That is why I had to laugh when “MMA” became such a great idea… my instructors had been doing that since the early 70’s. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.
They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks…it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.
They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above…but their main concern was the stand up aspect…not going to the ground.
Face it…if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy…even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.
This must be an arguement for the new generation.
I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference…it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding…then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.
[QUOTE=mantid1;911080]I have been training CMA for over 25 years now…have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period…I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.
That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80’s when I started. That is why I had to laugh when “MMA” became such a great idea… my instructors had been doing that since the early 70’s. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.
They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks…it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.
They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above…but their main concern was the stand up aspect…not going to the ground.
Face it…if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy…even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.
This must be an arguement for the new generation.
I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference…it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding…then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.[/QUOTE]
TO say that ALL CMA have ground fighting is wrong.
To say that NO CMA has ground fighting is also wrong.
Better to “debate” how effective the existing ground fighting is.
Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting…big difference.
Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to “debate”… even on a forum.
Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there…gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper…lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.
I have trained with some good kyokishin guys…great fighting style.
I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people “talking” about fighting.
[QUOTE=mantid1;911105]Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting…big difference.
Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to “debate”… even on a forum.
Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there…gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper…lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.
I have trained with some good kyokishin guys…great fighting style.
I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people “talking” about fighting.[/QUOTE]
I was ranked Nidan under Shihan Roman in '93.
I’ve trained under a few different Sensei’s in my time.
shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 “throws” of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;911128]shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 “throws” of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?[/QUOTE]
There is some ground work in Shuai Chiao, part of the Chin-na curriculum I think.
Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of “debating” about ground fighting…or any fighting for that matter… they will have the same opinion that I have…even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet…it wont help your fighting at all.
Have a good day!
[QUOTE=mantid1;911145]Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of “debating” about ground fighting…or any fighting for that matter… they will have the same opinion that I have…even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet…it wont help your fighting at all.
Have a good day![/QUOTE]
LMAO !
Good point.
LOL how true… but one must realize that ON the kung fu forum is the most fighting these guys will ever do! only in this day and age is the keyboard a weapon…In the old days you would use it only to smack someone across the face with it…
I got into a fight at a college frat party long time ago and when I thinking that it wasnt go to go my way I picked up a rotary dial phone and hit one of the guys across the the face with it… I never had that chance with a computer… LOL